Ned Kelly

Ned Kelly

Below are some opinions from readers, if you have something you want to add or ask - or have anything to say please write to
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Email Vault 2003

This page records the past feedback from readers. The emails contained in this feeback section do not necessarily represent the opinions of the creator and contributor/s of this website.
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Your say (and mine)

29/12/03 Re: Sister Kate

I have recently read Jean Bedford's novel "Sister Kate" and am wondering what you think about it. I decided to do some investigation as to the basic history of the Kellys and found your site. I can't admit to reading every word, but what I did read had no mention of the Kelly sisters. Can you recommend a (print) history of the Kellys that is fairly even-handed so that I can check some of the details in the novel. I'd like to try to work our what is fictionalised nad what is historical.
Thanks
Carol Young
'Sister Kate' is very much a fictional account of Ned's sister; and cannot be used to accurately follow her life. If you are keen to delve further into the true facts of Kelly history, two of the more accurate books currently available, and ones I would recommend first, include Professor John Molony's 'Ned Kelly', and Keith McMenomy's 'NK Authentic Illustrated history', both of which include information on Kate Kelly. (Professor Molony is probably the best place to start for a general overveiw, as it is highly accurate historically).
Kate’s great granddaughter, Ellen Hollow, wrote a piece for ironoutlaw that you should find interesting, at the following link: http://www.ironoutlaw.com/html/writings_hollow.html There is also a book ‘Women and bushrangers’ by D. Balcarek and G. Dean, which includes a short section devoted to Kate.

21/12/03 Re: Ned Kelly - The Real Story

A couple of days ago I received Barrie Dowdall's Video "NED KELLY ...THE REAL STORY". (Great spoof on Peter Carey) This film truly tells the Ned Kelly story, perhaps in the style of Keith Mc Menomy. Always factual and historical, Barrie's film is the Irish version made in conjunction with Gregory Miller, using more than 32 hours of film footage shot in Victoria and Ireland. NED has already been aired on Gaelic TV 4, and won the best film in the 'Stranger than Fiction ' section at Dublin Film Festival in October this year. I think for the international audience it sets up the story very well, where as 'Besieged' aimed at the domestic market, assumed every one knew the story and the myth. They are two very different films. It would be great on curriculum. I loved Barrie's editing and use of the footage much photo over / double image .... his pictorial interpretation is very different from Gregory's " Besieged." Barrie used more archival film and less of the enactment, very little dialogue by the actors, mostly voice over. With more than 32 hours of film edited to one hour there was plenty of scope, and from this has evolved two films both telling the story as it should have been told in the past.
If anyone is interested in a copy the distributor is :
Beyond Distribution
22 Newman Street, London
WITIPH

OR
www.beyond.com.au
Ellen Hollow

18/12/03 Re: Beseiged - The Ned Kelly Story

I would really like to buy a copy of the video recently produced BESEIGED..The Ned Kelly Story. Can you tell me where it is available. I live in Melbourne.
Thanking you in anticipation.
Yours truly,
Joan Tate.
'Beseiged' is not available in stores at this point, but
VHS copies can be purchased for $38 plus postage, (no DVDs available yet), via the contact details below. (Ronin Films can post a copy to you in Melbourne).

Enquiries: Ronin Films www.roninfilms.com.au for more information
PO Box 1005, Civic Square, Canberra ACT Australia 2608
Phone: 02 6248 0851 or Fax: 02 6249 1640
Email: orders@roninfilms.com.au


4/12/03 Re: Thank you and goodbye

Hi Bail up team , I am writing to say thanks for your support over the last three years but I am bowing out of the Ned Kelly exhibition. Matt will be continuing on and I am confident the exhibition will be open sooner than people realise. As I have explained to people I have a young family and it has finally taken it's toll on me and my wife.
I wish you all the success in the world. Thanks also to your readers for their support at both the Gaol exhibition and Southgate.
Long live Ned.
Thank you , Brendan Pearse

26/11/03 Re: kelly sites

I recently visited Kelly country and was totally dismayed at the condition of all the sites of Kelly significance as well as the general lack of respect for such an integral part of Australia's history. I'm interested in researching possible restoration of the sites and would appreciate my e address being passed on to anyone with information or interest who I can network with on this.
I also hope to contact with anyone who has done the legal legwork on the possibility of a posthumous pardon for the Kelly Gang. It probably sounds pretty pie in the sky but I want to look into it anyway, if no-one has already.
I truly feel the tide has turned for Ned in the way Australia views their number one legend, and that people who love Ned kelly need to move on preserving and restoring the dignity of Ned's life away from the mythology that has built up around him.
His dreams live in every person who supports the truth of Ned's life because his story is much more than just that, it will always be symbolic in some senses and we, as Australians have a part to play in seeing those dreams of freedom realised.
The future is a mystery and it is open for us to direct.
Call me crazy but I don't think Ned Kelly is finished with us as a nation just yet. lucie.
lucille colombo <thelucieflower@yahoo.com.au> (email address published by request)

19/11/03 Re: Ned homosexual

I wish to comment on the misguided remarks made by "No Name supplied" in the e mail of 16 November 2003. I am confident that in Nicky Cowie’s extremely well researched and excellently presented argument as to whether Ned was ever married."No Name supplied" felt that within that commentary there was inference that Ned was gay, simply because he was a bachelor. I fail to see it.
It is said Steve Hart rode collected supplies disguised in woman’s clothing, did that make him gay? I don’t think so. Maggie and Kate delivered supplies to the gang some times wearing trousers, did that make them gay? Hardly.
None of the other gang members were married either, the life style they chose left little time for courtship let alone marriage. I am sure there was time for dalliance but brief it must have been.
It is a matter of speculation by some that Ned was in fact married, especially since the emergence of Peter Cary’s fictional work and other comments made by some "experts" claiming Ned was married when he clearly was not. Hence, because of the "hype" Nicky felt the need to explore the facts against the fiction. I congratulate her on her thorough investigative piece.
Ellen Hollow.

Thanks Ellen.

16/11/03 Re: Ned homosexual!!!

I am infuriated at the unprofessional state of the article blatantly claming Ned Kelly was a homosexual, On what grounds do you make these alligations?
By writing that you are saying that if you're not married, you're homosexual!
(No Name supplied)

??? It seems obvious from what you have written that you have not thoroughly read, or perhaps not understood, the article that you have apparently been so "infuriated" by. Somehow you have managed to read the exact opposite of what is stated both throughout the analysis, and in the conclusions. So, perhaps you could point out the precise wording in the article that you have managed to interpret as “blatantly claiming Ned Kelly was a homosexual” - or exactly where in the article any such claim or "allegation" is made? If you go back and re-read the article and all its conclusions - slowly and carefully (if need be) - you will find that no "allegation" of homosexuality was even hinted at anywhere in the article. To the contrary - what you will find is a focus on the lack of evidence, along with a considerable amount of information arguing against the hypothesis that Ned was gay. You might also note that the topic is presented in the "Myths" section. So, by all means be “infuriated” if you wish - but surely you should really only be infuriated by things that are actually stated in the article - and not by the complete reverse of what is written.

13/11/03 Re: Was ned married??????

many years ago i was going through police records at the public records office in melbourne and i came across a telegram from russel street police to glenrowan police that said "interveiwed Ned's wife" i cant rember what else it said as at that stage i had never seen anything to suggest he even had a wife ,so i became quite exited by the telegram.Since then i have searched and so far i have not found anything to support that Ned did indeed have a wife.
from veronica rowan

12/11/03 Re: Ned Kelly

can you give me some information about Ned Kely not about anyone else involved thankyou Mitchell Arundel
What information in particular? It would help if you were a little more specific.

10/11/03 Re: Ned & girlfriends

Nicky you have done a good job, with your discussion sheet on marriage, girlfriends of Ned. I was there when Prof. John Maloney spoke to my father re Ettie( Esther) Hart. I was not present, when Ian Jones spoke to Dad on the same matter, but Dad & I had discussions on the same topic , he did say, being Catholics(did not marry a cousin) he felt that Kate was only a close cousin, as they were all very close, Catherine Lloyd , Jane Lloyd and Ellen Kelly, the 3 sisters having there families, all about the same time, they grew up together , were as close as Brothers & Sisters.
Lola Rowe nee Lloyd.
Thanks for your email Lola.

10/11/03 Re: Ned Kelly

hi
I think Ned Kelly is a fraud. he copied Johnnie gilberts plans. I think this was very unfair. I believe Ned is a villain and Johnnie is a hero because he made records that noone will ever be able to do again. people call Johnnie a villain because he shot people and stole money but isn't that what Ned did.
josh

9/11/03 Re: Ned Kelly photo

Please advise which web site I can access to print a picture of Ned Kelly in armour.
Thanks
GeoffreyWilson
Sorry Geoffrey, some photos of Ned exist and some pictures of his armour exist - but unfortunately none of Ned actually in the armour .

7/11/03 Re: Ebay 'Wanted Poster'

Well done Brian ! Myself and Brad Webb did exactly the same thing. Some of the responses from the bidders was absolutely uplifting! (I was even called a 'thoroughly decent gentleman' by one bidder!)...
p.s Brian, thanks for the original Kelliana I've bought from you mate!
...Brian McDonald, as reliable as a 351 XB on a long country road ;)
david cox

3/10/03 Re: From Lola Rowe (nee Lloyd)

I enjoyed your "History in dispute" area"
You ask, why did the Sympathisers not continue the fight for a "Republic of the North-East of Victoria" (oral history once again, the only kind I have), an area that my Father and I discussed in detail, his answer being, would you want to continue, when you had seen, Dan, Steve & Joe killed, a Brother, two mates as close as brothers, common sense prevailed and Neds, next in command was requested to send the Sympathisers to their homes before more lives were lost. Lola

28/10/03 Re: Thanks

I would just like to thank everyone at BailUp for the numerous amount of information you supplied me with whilst I was writing an important essay on Ned Kelly for my University Course; Australian Colonial History 1860- 1920. Without Bailup, I would never have been able to complete my essay on time. Thankyou very much. I published parts of the essay online at my Ned Kelly Fanlisting, http://tainted-dreams.org/nedkelly if you want to read it. And dont forget to join the fanlisting while you are at it :)
Cheer guys, and thanks again!
-Alexis
http://glittery-rain.net/
http://grey-haven.net/goldenwood/
http://tainted-dreams.org/nedkelly/

28/10/03 Re: Warning to Kelly Collectors

Ned Kelly PosterA Word of Warning! Some have seen this "reward poster" being offered on eBay and most of you are aware that it is a facsimile and not an original. Unfortunately a lot of people have been tricked into thinking it is an original by the description the seller has used.
When it was for sale a few weeks ago I was contacting bidders to inform them it was not an original. Those that replied were very grateful of the information. The winner, after being informed, told the seller where to "get off" and refused to pay him. The seller has relisted the "reward poster" with exactly the same wording and at the time of writing 14 bids have been placed at a price of $201!!! The seller became very sneaky too! He has made it a private auction so the bidders names are kept secret!
Numerous e-mails to eBay have drawn a blank (they think it has been correctly described) and to add insult to injury they have threatened me because of "auction interference"!!!
The seller is aware that the poster is a facsimile because when it was first listed I contacted him with the correct information (particularly that one of the photos of Ned was taken the day before his execution) ... the result ... he reduced the opening bid from $100 to $15!
So people ... be aware that some people out there are ready to rip you off !
Brian McDonald

23/10/03 Re: Photos from Glenrowan

Hello!
I have been browsing around the net for the photos from the Glenrowan 'showdown', but can't find any. I was wondering if you know where I can see them.
MVH
Thomas Henriksen
Norway
These photos are often re-produced in various places on the web, and in books. The most comprehensive collection can be found in Keith McMenomy's 'Ned Kelly The authentic illustrated history' Published by Hardie Grant www.hardiegrant.com.au

21/10/03 Re: An Enquiry

I was wondering if anyone had any information on Constable William Phillips who was at the siege of Glenrowan.
Thank you for your time.
Gregory Phillips.

6/10/03 Re: Talk by John H. Phillips

After reading Dave White’s review on, “A Talk by ex Chief Justice of Victoria John H. Phillips”, I was amazed by a couple of quotes from Mr. Phillips.
Deaths
Edward Kelly, Daniel Kelly, Joseph Byrne, Steve Hart, Aaron Sherritt, Sgt Kennedy, Const Lonigan, Const Scanlon and finally Judge Barry. The saddest part of all was that all but one were Irish born.
Mr Phillips believes that all but one were Irish born! How can anyone make any claim to know anything of the Kelly saga, when they think that Ned was born in Ireland. Is it any wonder that some people (film makers included), think that Ned spoke with an Irish accent instead of the early Aussie accent that everyone else who was born here used. One can only wonder what other mistakes Mr. Phillips has made.
Another quote from this article where Mr. Phillips was answering questions;-
Q - What was the death of Judge Barry? A - Pneumonia
I may be wrong here (and I would ask for Bailup’s opinion), but I was under the impression that Judge Barry died from blood poisoning caused by a carbuncle, as he had a tendency to suffer from them.
Mick Fitzsimons
Dave's response:
I took notes during this talk and paraphrased that into the story I wrote. In relation to comments about the deaths caused by the Kelly gang, my interpretation of Mr. Phillips comments,"they were all sons of Ireland except one", was incorrect. I relayed those comments to say,"they were all born in Ireland, except one", when in fact in this case I should have written it exactly as he said it, "they were all sons of Ireland, except one". Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.
Regarding Judge Barry's death: Source: Redmond Barry by Ann Galbally. "16 Nov, sought treatment for a carbuncle.....his untreated diabetic condition meant that he was prone to bacterial infections such as carbuncles and now the bacteria had entered the bloodstream causing septicaemia......(pneumonia cause of death on certificate)."

30/09/03 Re: Police constables

Have enjoyed your information on the Kelly's. Regarding my search could you advise me if there was ever a police man involved in or even shot and killed by the Kellys with the name of Michael Cavanagh.
Thank you Eleanor Oberg
The only police killed by the Kellys were those at Stringybark Creek, (Kennedy, Scanlon and Lonigan). However I suggest you try contacting the police historical unit to see if a Michael Cavanagh was involved in the police hunt for the Kelly gang.

23/09/03 Re: Kelly camp photo reveal Kelly chopped trees

Just recently, August 03, while looking at an original photo taken of the Kelly Camp by a Tolmie family work party, ( within five years) of the Kelly occupation of Bullock Creek 1878, I spotted in the background of the photo some chopped trees. As the provenance of the photo is unquestionable, the chopped trees are undoubtedly chopped to recover the bullet lead from the trees as described by the reporter of The Argus newspaper :
At Kelly camp, Bullock Creek in every direction- taking the hut as a standing point we saw trees which were marked with bullet holes, from five to fifty having been fired into each, at ranges varying from 20 to 400 yards. The bullets being afterwards chopped out, were melted down, and converted again into their former state.
Constable Frank James, only one month after the killings at Stringybark Creek wrote to his supervisor Superintendent Sadlier: On examining the trees within range of the loopholed hut we found that they had been used as targets for rifle- practice, hundreds of bullets having been fired into them and then cut out...
These reports can be supported by the only known photograph of some of the chopped trees. While it can be argued that during that time other people who visited the Kelly camp could have done the chopping, this is unreasonable but not unlikely as the visitor on horse back would have had to bring an axe with him in anticipation of recovering lead that the Kellys had shot - and had recovered.
I believe from the Kelly gang story point of view, one single most important photo of the time has to be the Burman photo of Stringybark Creek of 1878, The second most important photo is of the Kelly camp taken by the Tolmie work party (while Ewen Tolmie was still alive, he died in 1883 and the Kelly camp photo was taken before then). Also within that photo are the details a bullet holed bullock skull that had been slaughtered at the site probably by the Kellys, and close by can be seen the ring of rocks of an outdoor camp fireplace. Again undoubtedly used by the Kellys.
For those interested to get a close up look at that historic photo, please go to my website www.denheldid.com/twohuts Story 8 and 10.
Bill Denheld

22/09/03 Re: Max Brown

The death of Max Brown has come as a shock to many of us. It is unfortunate that it sometimes takes the death of a person to remind us just how great he or she truly was.
When my Grandfather passed away we found that he had left behind but one Australian history book, An Australian Son. A well worn 1948 edition. For me that spoke volumes about Max's work.
An Australian Son was not just another Kelly book. It was the work of a brilliant pioneer, a man who did not seek fame or glory. A quiet achiever you might say, in the world of Kellyana. There are a few authors today who could learn from 'gentleman' Max. In my book he never received the true credit he deserved, much of it has gone elsewhere, sad but true. The current breed of writers owe Max a great deal of gratitude.
The good news here is that now many who had never heard of Max will seek out a copy of his book and place it at the front of the line of Kelly titles. Hopefully the text he was working on will be published for those eager to learn the 'facts' about Ned. Of the many many books I have on Ned, this one has always been my favourite. If I had to save but one from a house fire, that would be the one.
Hopefully much much more will be written about Ned and the gang in years to come, just don't ever expect another book like An Australian Son to turn up. If you have a copy treasure it, if not try to find one.
Dave White.

21/09/03 Re: Max Brown

Max Brown was a Kelly legend and his book Australian Son a classic!
So why hasn't Bailup got a review of his book in its book section?
Max Brown RIP Respectfully,
Sam Bennett
You are right that Australian Son is a classic, and absolutely worth reviewing, but Bailup only concentrates on Kelly books that are newly released. Ironoutlaw has an excellent and comprehensive listing of older Kelly books for those interested. Max is a favourite of Bailups and when his revised edition of Australian Son is released it will definately be reviewed in detail.

21/09/03 Re: Richard Thorp’s comments on Ned’s accent (5/09/03)

It is great to see someone questioning this and not blindly following what they are being told. Richard (and interested others) may like to take a look at “The Great Debate” at ironoutlaw. Here he will find arguments for and against to help him decide the accent issue. I suggest starting at the bottom of the page and reading the comments as they were added to the debate. Hopefully, more people will take an interest in this subject and pass comment on it here on “Your Say.”
Mick Fitzsimons

14/09/03 Re: Ned's accent

Hi, I have just seen a post on your site about Ned's accent and thought I would add my thoughts.
My great grandmother, Mary Cain was born at Ryan's Creek near Benalla in 1863 to Irish immigrant parents so grew up in the same time and place as many of the Kelly clan. My father can remember her as an old woman speaking with the same Australian accent that every other native born person had. He recalls certain words may have had a slight Irish twang. Of course her accent may have changed from the time she was a girl to the time my father remembers her but it is interesting nonetheless. Both my own grandparents were born in the Greta district and knew many of the people involved in the Kelly story and never mentioned Irish accents in the stories they told me. That doesn't prove anything conclusively of course but those debating Ned's accent may find it food for thought. Please keep up your good work!
Regards Matt Sumner

9/09/03 Re: John Sadleir (d 1919)

Thanks. I've just read your reply and it was and excellent starting point for me to do further research.
Kind Regards
Travis M. Sellers

5/09/03 Re: Ned Kelley film

hello,
i was hoping you could help with something that has been bugging me since i saw the new ned kelley film trailer. Ned kelley speaks with an irish accent, and yet i thought he was born in australia. i know his parents or father at least were irsh, but this wouldnt grant him an irish accent growing up in australia, would it?
Richard Thorp
Richard, you have just hit on one of the most hotly debated topics in Kelly history. Yes, Ned was Australian born, and both his parents were Irish, however what accent Ned actually spoke with is a question that is open to debate, and it is a debate that has divided many historians. What accent Ned spoke with is undocumented. There are a few articles in bailup's news section that cover both sides you might wish to read (such as 22/03/03 'Begorrah, Ned, or maybe g'day?'). Oral history tends to imply that he used an Irish accent, however a number of researchers are currently looking into early Australian linguistics, and argue that there was indeed an Australian accent during Ned's lifetime - and that it is likely he had one. The decision to use an Irish accent in films is probably mostly a commercial one. Sorry there is not a more direct answer. (ps there is only one 'e' in Kelly).

3/09/03 Re: John Sadleir (d 1919)

Hello - I'm currently reading "Recollections of a Victorian Police Officer" by John Sadlier who played a role in the Kelly story. Naturally, I would expect Sadlier's account of his role in the capture of the Kelly Gang to be somewhat biased, but to what extent, I can only ask.
What I'm hoping to achieve is to write a brief biopgraphical outline of Sadlier's life for publication on my website on the history of Brighton General Cemetery where Sadlier is interred - http://www.brightoncemetery.com
I would appreciate any thoughts on John Sadlier however extreme they might be. For example, were his writings a truthful recollection? How is he rated as a police officer and did he act honourably during the Kelly Gang period.
Kind Regards
Travis M. Sellers

Superintendent John Sadlier
was found by the Royal Commission Inquiry of 1881to have made "several errors of judgment, his conduct of operations was not judicious or calculated" and recommended that he be "placed at the bottom of the list of superintendents and reduced in rank". The Reward Board granted him the 6th largest share in the 8,000 pound reward for his part in the destruction of the Kelly gang, (240 pounds, 17 shillings & threepence). Sadlier, a man of his time, was actively involved in the Kelly hunt and appeared to be a generally pragmatic and sensible police officer. He did however make mistakes, but overall, did his job as well as he was able, considering the environment he was working in. He considered the unlawful remand of the Kelly sympathisers in 1879 as 'unwise'. He was also the policeman who, after assessing the still potentially volatile situation, allowed the bodies of Dan and Steve to be taken by their families (rather than kept by the police for the coroner to autopsy). He also reputedly displayed consideration toward Ned after his capture at Glenrowan. (nb The account in his book was certainly a lot more accurate than Supt. Hare's efforts, but it does give one a sense that he was trying to justify his behaviors to his critics, rather than a simple account of what happened). It is definately worth reading his responses to the Royal Commission's questioning of him.

2/09/03 Re: Riding to Disaster - The Police and Stringybark Creek

I've just finished reading Marian Matta's excellent spot. it was *** brilliant...
...I'm obliged to recognise this lady!... It was absolutely fantastic reading. pass on my regards..
.
in faith and trust
david cox (llama)

1/09/03 Re: The true Ned, Dan, Steve

Was Ned or Dan hung? Did Dan and Steve escape?
Burning question and I really want to know the answers. I have been reading, sketching and fascinated with the Kelly Gang and the Glenrowan shoot out for years. Have you anymore information on the DNA testing?
I tend to believe that Dan and Steve died at Glenrowan but there is always that nagging doubt that just won't good away. I find your web site a wealth of information but the more I read on this site in books and in documents the more question I seem to have.
What are your researchers ideas on these matters PLEASE
Regards
Warwick Morris
I approach all topics by open-mindedly researching all the questions that arise in Kelly mythology - but to only rely on what can be proven (i.e. facts) for answers. All else is merely speculation.
The majority of Kelly researchers believe that Dan and Steve died at Glenrowan because there is absolutely no proof to suggest they did not. It has been scientifically proven that Ned that was hanged in November of 1880. Unfortunately, until such time as someone manages to produce varifiable evidence to suggest that what historians currently believe as fact is actually incorrect, all researchers must be left with whatever 'nagging doubts' may arise. No results have yet been publicised regarding the DNA tests on the body of Ryan in Ipswich .

23/08/03 Re: Matta

Please pass on to Marian that I enjoyed her well researched and well written article on bailup. I look forward to the next one,
regards Dave White.

18/08/03 Re: skull cap

Further to your reply re. the skull cap, it's worth noting that SC Kelly who found it, full of blood and with a pool of blood on the ground, actually wore it that night so it couldn't have been too awful once the blood had been tipped out. The story of Ned catching blood in it seems a bit odd to me. I think Ian Jones described it that way in A Short Life. I assume Ned was using it to apply pressure to his wounds rather than to catch blood.
I once used my limited medical knowledge to work out how much blood Ned lost, based on his symptoms. I thought about 35-40% at least. Barely okay if you're in a modern hospital with oxygen, plasma and blood transfusions, but pretty desperate if you have been staggering around in a hundredweight of armour for hours, are roughly handled and then given just the emergency treatment Dr Nicholson could provide on the spot. And then to be plied with alcohol!
Marian Matta

16/08/03 Re: Ned's helmet

Thanks very much for the contact and the information about the helmet lining. I have to figure how the leather strap and lining don't stick out the top of the helmet and if our necks can stand the weight of the helm.
I'll drop you a line when I have had a go to let you know how it went if you are interested.
Andrew Bodley
Please do

11/08/03 Re: Kilmore Court House

Hello, I saw your car at Kilmore and was curious to see you website which looks very good. I haven't throughly explored it but i thought you might be interested in a song my father sang about Ned Kelly. I enjoyed hearing Justice Phillips speak it was well worth the drive.
Danielle
Thanks Danielle (btw That was D. White's cruiser you saw at Kilmore).

In a Ramshackle Hut
Anonymous. Sung by Frank Ahern often.

Ned Kelly was born in a ramshackle hut,
He battled since he was a kid,
He grew up with duffers and bad men and thieves
And learned all the things that they did.

Ned Kelly would ride from the back-country hills,
He'd ride into town like a lord,
He'd steal all the squatters' fine horses, and then -
He would take them back for the reward.

At sixteen young Ned was a wild, reckless lad.
Helped hold up a coach without fear,
But he was arrested, remanded, and then,
They put him in gaol for a year.

When he came out, he was bitter and hard,
Far worse than he ever had been,
He robbed and he plundered, became a wild boy,
The wildest Australia had seen.

He shot down the troopers who came on his track,
And laughed at the price on his head,
Ten thousand pounds for the whole of the gang,
And two thousand pounds just for Ned.

The bank at Jerilderie next took his eye,
This job brought him lots of renown,
He wasn't contented to stick up the bank,
But he held up the whole flaming town.

Down at Glenrowan they held up the pub,
They were having a drink and a song,
The troopers rode up and surrounded the place,
The Kellys had waited too long.

Ned came out shooting, a gun in each hand,
And wearing his armour of steel,
He was fifteen times wounded before he fell down,
Never more would he plunder and steal.

They took him to Melbourne, and nursed him to health,
The judge said, 'You're guilty!' to Ned,
A rope from a rafter, the sun in the east,
And the famous Ned Kelly was dead.

Some say he's a hero who gave to the poor,
While others 'A killer!' they say,
It just goes to show the old saying is true,
The saying that 'Crime does not pay'.

Yet when I look round at some people I know,
And the prices of things that I buy,
I say to myself, 'Well, perhaps after all,
Poor Ned wasn't such a bad guy'.

11/08/03 Re: Outlawed: The real Ned Kelly

The documentary, “Outlawed: The real Ned Kelly”, was a load of rubbish. What started out well, explaining how the wealthy squatters mixed with the likes of judges, politicians and high ranking police at the Melbourne Club and the influences this mixture of wealth and importance had on the Colony and policy making of the day, soon turned to a farce, mixed with images of
someone being murdered in cold blood and then the ranting of an ill informed, ex history school teacher and freelance journalist (not an author as the program would have us believe) by the name of Christopher Bantick. It would appear that Mr. Bantick is an anti Australian and extreme left wing radical, if his article “Don't sacrifice the sanctity of Anzac Day”, is anything to go by. He bases part of the article on lies by journalist about supposed drunken behaviour by young Aussies at Gallipoli. These lies were exposed by Derryn Hink who was present at the time. If that is the sort of research that Mr. Bantick relies on, combined with his own twisted slant on our history, we can at least be thankful that he is no longer teaching and influencing young impressionable minds. Then you add a producer who is a Pom and look at the rubbish they dish up. And of course, they cannot display Ned as an Aussie, they have to give him that irritating Irish accent, trying to strip us of our national identity and culture.
Mick Fitzsimons

5/08/03 Re: Ned Kelly in Tamborine

I run a horse trail ride through Mt Tamborine on the Gold Coast..I've heard some stories that Ned Kelly and his gang rode through here and what ever...
can you confirm this or tell me where i can find out ?? it would make a good story to tell when we are mosing on through the bushland on our horses especially the Asian tourists...
Thanks for an help you can give me..
leanne
Unlikely in the extreme.

30/07/03 Re: Ned's armour

Hello again, I have another question on the helmet lining which is in the photograph beside the section on Dan and Steve's armour on your website. Does it still survive? I presume not as no mention is made of it. Whose was it? There doesn't seem to be enough blood on it to be Neds. Is it a tea cozy sewn up or was it specially made for the armour? Has anyone got any ideas as to how it was made and of what was it made? If it isn't Neds are there any records of what Ned wore under his helm? I cant believe that he wore nothing under his helm as the size is enormous and would wobble on his head.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Andrew Bodley
As far as is known, yes that is Ned's helmet lining in the photo. It is possible that Dan, Joe and Steve had liners also, but if so, it is most likely that Dan and Steve's (and probably Joe's) would have been burned when the police set fire to the Glenrowan Inn, thus it is presumed that Ned's is the one in the photo. Small holes in the top of Ned's helmet were made and straps tied between them, thus the liner could take some of the weight of the helmet.
This item is not focused on much as info about it is generally hearsay, the 'story' nonetheless is reasonably believable. The liner is supposed to have been made by Ned's sister and was padded fabric like a small curved quilt. After leaving the Glenrowan Inn during the seige, Ned apparenlty took the liner and helmet off when he collapsed outside. It is said he cradled his elbow in it and the blood dripped inside it like an absorbant dish. He then was supposed to have discarded it when he woke (perhaps bc it was so bloodied?) and leaving it with his rifle, he made his last stand without it. If this story is correct then the blood would be mostly on the inside of the liner and thus may not show up in the photograph, which only shows one side of the outside of it. After the photo was taken it was either destroyed by the police, or taken as a souvenir by someone unknown.

29/07/03 Re: New Stories from Bill

I thought you and your readers would be interested in my latest findings. Re, Kellys Creek. We are all familiar with the photo of the hut at Kellys Creek.Ned Kelly Hut
I have discovered the picture is printed back to front, but not only that, it may not have been where it was supposed to have been, ( where a sawmill was built at Kellys Creek in 1930's ).
To prove this we need the help of a Kelly Sympathizer- field surveyor to conduct a check survey at the creek to prove my theory. Also, I have discovered the only picture of the Kelly tree at Kellys Creek when it was still standing. This unique picture is a first. The Kellys used that tree as the main target for shooting practice. It is all explained at the following website for all to see. http://denheldid.com/twohuts/bullets.html#story9

Also at this website , Story 10 is about the EK gun.Ned Kelly Gun
It was found in a mine shaft at Beechworth in 1940 together with three other guns that could have been part of an armoury of Kelly sympathizers. When the uprisings failed, a gun with EK stamped on it may well have become a liability to the owner. The other guns were very old fashioned cap locks common of the type during that time. Picture attached.

Please go to the website link above to get the full story. Anyone with knowledge of similar stories about guns/rifles please contact me bill@denheldid.com
From, Bill Denheld

28/07/03 Re: Neds armour

Thanks for getting back in touch so quickly. I have sent an email to the state library and am still waiting for a reply. Did you see there computer simulation of Neds armour? They have a still of
it on there web page. In there exhibition you are supposed to be able to move all around the armour and even look inside. How good are the replicas of Neds armour? I have seen a still from the new movie and cant really tell who's armour it was supposed to be.
Andrew

27/07/03 Re: Neds armour

I work at the Royal Armouries museum in Britain. The Royal Armouries is the National Museum of Arms and Armour and was originally in the Tower of London. We opened a new museum in 1996 in Leeds, which has a dept on interpreters who's job is to bring the collection to life. This ranges from medieval jousting to soldiers experiences in Bosnia.
We have planned for September an event based around "Outlaws". One of the interpretations we will be performing is on Ned Kelly. As such I have to make a copy of his armour. Is there anywhere that has photographs of his armour from all angles and dimensions and weights?
I have found your web site very useful and also the state library of Victoria has some dimensions and information but only front on photographs.
Any help or ideas of where I can find this information will be appreciated. Also what test were the police carriying out and have they any results yet?
Andrew Bodley
As Ned's armour is held by the State Library of Victoria you would be best to contact them directly and ask for the details you need, someone should be able to help. (They do have a feedback address on there site that would be worth a try. ) Failing that, there is a man who makes replicas of Ned's armour and so will have its dimensions. Good luck with your quest.
As yet, there have been no further results published on the tests being done.

22/07/03 Re: Black Snake: The Daring of Ned Kelly: available in U.S?

Thank you very much for your help!
best wishes, Kathryn Kaufmann

17/07/03 Re: Black Snake: The Daring of Ned Kelly: available in U.S?

Is Black Snake: The Daring of Ned Kelly available for purchase in the United States? Is it possible to mail order it directly from your website and have it shipped to the U.S?
I'd love to get it for my nephew.
Thank you,
Kathryn Kaufmann

This is an information site only and so do not sell any products, however if you contact the publisher they should be able to direct you in how to get a copy. Publisher: Black Dog Website: www.bdb.com.au 15 Gertrude Street, Fitzroy Vic 3065, Australia Ph: (03) 9419 9406, Fax: (03) 9419 1214

27/06/03 Re: Oral history

If you were one of the friends of the most sought after fugitive of your time, the last thing you would do is write down a diary of your relationship with this outlaw. Hence, no written texts.
You also wouldn't carve your initials into any product you made for Ned.
John Schilling
GGrandson of Friedrich Kuchel
Blacksmith
Related News article

19/06/03 Re: Aaron Sherritt

I've been commissioned by the family of Aaron Sherritt's Grandniece to do their family history. I've had difficulty in getting much - what little I've found has been helpful, but not a lot to show for the fact that the Sherritt's played a role in the Kelly saga.
The irony for me is that another contact of mine claims to be connected to Ellen Kelly nee Quinn............so I've been doing a lot of reading in the past six months trying to work out the true story of this claim........still waiting for her to get back to me at the moment on that one.
As you can see from below, I was refered to you by Denise from Brisbane. I'm on the Sunshine Coast in Qld and am unable to visit the Beechworth Area in person at the present time to do some indepth research. But I'm hoping that there are some people out there with information, so that I don't have to reinvent the wheel - so to speak.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Regards,
Fiona Tellesson

18/06/03 Re: Baileys Vineyard

Have been thinking more about Ned working at Baileys Vineyards and that this was the place he supposedly developed a taste for 'claret'. I am a winemaker with the company that now owns Baileys. In Ned Kelly - A Short Life, it states that Ned's Last Supper consisted of, among other things, a bottle of claret. Is there any information to suggest that his last drop, so to speak, was a wine from Baileys?? Or is there any information about the origin of this bottle of wine?
Cheers, from a very curious,
Cindy (Heley)
You have set yourself a tricky task in finding an answer to that one! It is very unlikely that there will be any record of what vineyard any claret Ned may have drunk actually came from, but you could try nevertheless. Note Jones claims his source is "Ashmead page 29 (a detail undoubtedly gleaned from Ellen Kelly...)". It is perhaps possible that the Melb Gaol purchased all its food and drink at that time from registered suppliers and kept records, but as other Gaol records have not survived it is a long shot. (Try contacting the National Trust.) Have you researched how many vineyards at the time had claret available? Because that could narrow your search a little, although it is likely that you will only ever be able to claim a certain 'probability' it was Baileys - rather than a fact. Good luck with your search Cindy.

16/06/03 Re: Ned Kelly Advert?

I am researching how Ned Kelly has been satirised/mimicked in the media over the past ten years or so. I recently read in Graham Seal's "The Outlaw Legend" that Ned Kelly was used in an advert by Challenge Bank in Australia (now Westpac I think) in or around 1991. I have been unable to find any reference to this at all and am eager to find out more. Are you aware of any such advert? Do you know of any other advert in which Ned Kelly is used? I also read somewhere that calls were being made for Kelly to be immortalised in a bank note. Do you know anything about this?
Any other points of interest/guidance will be gratefully received!
Kind regards
Sam (Gable)
There is a "Can't tear em" work clothes radio advert around at the moment (presented as a poem) about the Kelly gang.

15/06/03 Re: Link request

I have visited your site many times and love how it is so current. I have provided a link to your web site on my links page as I am sure that visitors to my site will find your site fascinating. I would appreciate if you could add a reciprocal link to our web site to www.nedkellyart.com.au
I am sure your visitors would be very interested in our art exhibition The Lives of the Kelly Gang by artist Barry Walsh.
Barry immersed himself in the history of the gang for 2 years which resulted in a collection of 25 artworks which has toured parts of Australia (especially Victoria) for years before finally being offered for sale now.
I noticed, when visiting your site that you have a section devoted to links to the art of Ned Kelly. I have provided an image of the collection's centre-piece artwork. This painting is 5 metres long and the armour is painted larger than life! It is certainly an inspiring piece of work. Ned Kelly Art
I'd love to hear what you think of Barry's work. The collection is being offered to collectors and Ned Kelly enthusiasts world wide though we would love to be able to keep the collection within Australia if we can.
Warm regards
Janet Beckers
www.indigoart.com.au
Log on to Original Australian Art

10/06/03 Re: Surname: Correct spelling Scanlan or Scanlon ?

There appears to be a bit of confusion about the spelling of the surname of Mounted Constable Michael Scanlan (Scanlon) Stringybark Creek 26-10-1878
Six (6) examples of surname spelt Scanlan.
(1) Victoria Police - Record of Conduct and Service Sheet.
(2) Petty Sessions Mansfield November 1874.
(3) Gravestone Mansfield Cemetery.
(4) Troopers/Police Monument Mansfield, erected 1880 at the junction
of High and Highett Streets.
(5) Royal Commission 1881.
(6) J.J.Keneally publication 1929.
Although the surname is spelt Scanlan in these instances, many authors including noted historians appear to favour spelling the surname Scanlon. Can anyone offer an explanation? Comments welcome.
Sheila Hutchinson email joebec@mansfield.net.au

6/06/03 Re: Gang's chest

In response to Sam Bennett's query re: the Gang's chest, it wasn't actually the Gang's chest as such. We have been told by the owner that it actually belonged to Steve Hart (as we only very recently found out), and the contents of the chest apparently were split between two descendants.
The chest does indeed exist. It is actually in Melbourne. The main aim of finding the chest (which, in reality is actually more like a small trunk or box) was to see if the photo of Ned, Joe and Tom Lloyd at the Wangaratta races actually exists. We still believe it does. We actually had a Lloyd descendant at our exhibition a couple of months ago claiming they had seen the photo and had it in their hand as a child.
So, the chest/trunk does indeed exist - and the contents are in the hands of a third party. If we find out more, we'll certainly let you know. Here's hoping!!
Cheers and best wishes,
Matt Shore.

6/06/03 Re: Ned stories

It is good to see so many people researching Ned and the gang now (even if some of them are actually seriously wondering if some of the more stupid stories could be true) but any research is good as far as i am concerned no matter where the researcher starts. The more people interested the more the field is open to all, then no one gets to dominate the stage and so we end up closer to true history - not one version of it. I guess stories about Dan and Ned swapping identities, and Steve being a cross-dresser, etc are no different to stories about celebrities now in trashy mags - people like to claim all sorts of things that aren't true about famous people. But when it comes down to it - any story that can't be proven is just a story. People forget that fact. Even some of the stories that might be true (like the Republic of the north east) are still just stories until there is proof! It all just goes to show that people will believe whatever they want to believe. Experience has taught me not to believe anything without some sort of evidence to back it up. The only drawback to the ametuer historian publishing freeforall is that some 'historians' and writers don't think they need to give us real proof and that their opinion is good enough. But no it isn't.

I finally got to see what all the outrage was about and believe it or not I really enjoyed Ned Kelly with Heath Ledger. Yeah, I know it wasn't factual, but i think it is a top flick anyway.
Any news about the release of all the doumentaries currently being made?
Sam Bennett
p.s. And what ever happened to the secret chest with all the gangs personal effects in it?

The Besieged doco is very soon to be released, there is a cast and crew screening at Glenrowan on the 27th June. Still no news of the 'treasure chest' has reached me.

31/05/03 Re: Theories Police camp site at Stringybark!! Trevor Harbord.

Ned Kelly DenheldThe area rising up behind the figure with the raised arm is on the other side of the creek. The lens used by Burman was probably a 4 inch telescopic that drew everything in close. Just behind the Kelly tree ( near the figure) is the creek - the ground drops away here but it looks like continuous ground to where it rises up. As Trevor says, it looks like only 10 metres away, yet it is more than 50 metres away ( with the creek and swamp in between that you can't see in this photo). This has been a problem for Kelly historians for years. One day a bush fire will go through here and all will be revealed no doubt. A good illustration of the area can be seen in my story 2 http://denheldid.com/twohuts/story.html#Story2
See the overall plan sketch of the Stringybark Ck site where the drawn contours show how the slope rises up just behind the huts. It was this very slope that lead to my discovery confirming the location of the police camp site.
Bill Denheld. bill@denheldid.com

30/05/03 Re: Black Snake

This is just a note to let you know that my book for kids on Ned, Black Snake: the daring of Ned Kelly, has been shortlisted for a Children's Book of the Year Award (the Eve Pownall Award for Information Books). Needless to say I am thrilled by this. The awards will be announced in August.
Regards
Carole Wilkinson n
Well deserved. The best of luck Carole!

29/05/03 Re: Ned's name

I was searching your site, and i was wondering if you could help me with something that has been hurting my head for a while. What is ned short for? I thought it could be edmund, its just to settle an argument between friends, so it would be great if you could let me know if it is short for any particular name.
wesley eastham
Wes, if after having searched this site you still believe Ned is short for Edmund - then why do you think everyone, including this site, refers to him as Edward? (No wonder your head is hurting.)

29/05/03 Re: Dan Kelly was a wizard

Dan seems to be taking on a mystical quality doesn't he!?! Somehow he escaped Glenrowan and lived to a ripe old age in Queensland - at the same time he was mistaken for Ned, captured and executed in 1880. Dan was dead and alive and able to be Ned all at the same time. I wonder where he will turn up next? (Maybe in one of the Harry Potter books.) Come to think of it, if Ned wasn't hung, then where did he end up? Ned seemed to have been inlove with and, or married quite a lot of women too didn't he? I thought Joe was supposed to be the ladies man. Oh, and now we are told that Ned's best and most trusted friend Joe was actually a bastard (I wonder what Ned would say to that) and that Aaron was really the good guy. Is that why the gang shot him? Poor old neglected Steve, although he apparently escaped the seige to freedom - nobody seems to care what happened to him after that! Can anyone tell me who the two dead lads were in the Inn if they weren't Dan and Steve?
What is going on? For God's sake everyone, the story is interesting enough without having to make up all this extra fantasy, let alone believing any of it.
Regards, Peter Rules
p.s. Top web site. Best bit is the outlaws section. I have always wondered if the gang were still outlaws at Glenrowan and no historian was sure - but now we all know they weren't! Keep up the good work Bailup sleuths.
Thanks Peter.
For answers on whether Dan was hanged or not click HERE, or if maybe if he escaped - click HERE

28/05/03 Re: research

My name is Rebecca and I am studying history at Melbourne University.
I am currently doing research on the Kelly image throughout the past 103 years and the myths surrounding the Kelly legend, in particular Dan Kelly's escape, Steve Hart's cross-dressing and those who claim to be direct descendants of Ned's, despite him not offically being known to have any children of his own.
I was wondering if you could help me with any information on these particular tales. Specifically I would love as much information on Steve Hart as possible, as a find this tale absouletly amusing and deliteful.
The discussions on this site are fantastic!
Regards..
Rebecca.(Stuart)
Since the Kelly Outbreak many and varied 'myths' have immerged, (such as the one's you have mentioned) and been offered convincingly until some have even been widely believed as fact. This phenomenon actually started back in 1878 when the untrue theory that Ned had cut off Sgt. Kennedy's ears was first publicised, and such myths have not stopped coming since. There has been a recent increase of them, no doubt due to the increased interest in the Kelly story generally. Ned's bravery, the gangs' stylish bank robberies, and the fact the gang members wore homemade armour - makes their story unique. People are fascinated by the Kelly story for its complexity, and thus like to imagine there is more to it. Various escape and 'cross-dressing' stories are therefore fabricated and eventually start to become folk-law. Some people take them very seriously. It is important to study these stories as part of the Kelly image, but while doing so, it is equally important to recognise them as fable. When approaching such theories it is best to treat them as fiction unless they are supported by clear and verifiable fact.

26/05/03 Re: Ned's escape

thanks for your reply, and yes it has shed some light on the subject. i was also wondering as to what your views were on the movie 'Ned Kelly', with Heath Ledger. what did you think about the siege of Glenrowan scene, where the Kelly's were massacring the police. i think that the
writers of the movie were mainly going for action more than anything else.
Dylan Howell
You are right Dylan, the amount of police shot in the siege scene was definately for effect rather than authenticity, but remember, the movie was by no means historically accurate. After all, this is a film that had the gang drinking horse blood, and lions and camels at the seige of Glenrowan! For a review of the screenplay which does address some of the issue that arise when fiction is woven into historical fact for the sake of art - click HERE. (For anyone wondering which of the main elements in the movie are fact and which are fiction - click HERE.)

22/05/03 Re: Theories Police camp site at Stringybark!!

gday bailup,
Just writing in giving my 20 cents worth regarding Bill Denhelds theory on the Police camp site.
I read Bills two huts article with great interest and the effort he has gone to is plain for all to see.
I have read and re-read his findings several times and have visited Stringybark creek twice in the last couple of months. As much as I would like to be, I am still not convinced the spot Bill has pinpointed is THE spot of the police killings for 2 reasons.
1 )In one of the photographer Burman Photos of the murder site, a distinct sharp rise appears to the right no more than 10 metres or so from where the figure with the raised hand stands.
When standing at the suggested site of burmans tripod ( as per Bill Denhelds Instructions) no distinct rise is seen in close proximity to the spot/looking in the supposed direction of the camera.
There is only a gradual rise on the far side of Stringybark creek road.
When I have mentioned this to several possible authorities on the subject they always state mining has gone on that is why the rise isnt there. I find this theory a bit hard to swallow/The mining done in those days would have been manual labour, there are miners holes here and there, but would a rise as in the picture possibly be levelled only by modern machinery. There is no area in the current possible police camp site that remotely suggests a rise once existed in the area, there would have to be some trace of this rise today if this was the spot, I am sure last century no earth moving graders had been invented. I understand cameras from the last century had their limitations but the rise is plain to see and extremely close to the police camp site. The theory of the two huts fireplaces would prove that this may be the police camp site, only if we knew without a doubt that no other huts/dwellings had ever been constructed in the area and I am sure this is not the case.
I found no area that resembles the police camp, but will continue my hunt.
Also on another topic.
I read in an internet link from the Sydney morning Herald that has Kelly related stories that a couple of years ago southebys had auctioned around 100 Kelly family photos that had apparently belonged once to Ellen Kelly. Will the public ever get to see these? One would think with the shortage of photos of the Kelly gang and relatives these would be made available to A kelly authority writing a book for the right price. Is there anything in the pipeline by way of newly discovered Kelly photos???? Does anyone know??
Anyway will pipe down for now.
Regards Trevor Harbord.
ps replies please if any to trevor.h@optusnet.com.au

21/05/03 Re: Dan and Steve escaped Glenrowen seige theory

I watched with some humour and amazement at Councilor Tully's (Ipswich City Council) on Channel 7's Sunrise program yet again regurgitating the farcical theory that Dan and Steve somehow escaped the fire at the Glenrowen Inn the night of the siege and fled to Queensland..I would like to ask Councilor Tully was this to coincide with the release of the new movie or sheer coincidence?. We have been hearing this theory for over 70 years!!!!!..also I would like to know who erected the mock Armour of the gang in honour of this "conman" who claims to be Dan buried in an Ipswich cemetery without verifying THE TRUTH?....and who paid for it?
Most of us are sick to death of these so called and self proclaimed experts running this story every couple of years to boost their own hidden agendas.
Over many years our Relatives graves have been desecrated by some who have jumped to such conclusions which I find totally disgusting and immoral.
I just wish these people would just accept what happened that night or stop peddling their theories without backing it up with PROOF.
Paul O'Keefe
Steve Hart's Great Great Nephew

18/05/03 Re: Ned Kelly

Hi !
As a genealogist, I hear alot of stories that come to fruition when many people tell the same story.
From what I have heard, and seen on the movie of Ned Kelly (starring John Jarrett) ; Ned worked for a blacksmith when he was in his late teens early 20s. The blacksmith taught him to read during Ned's lunch breaks as he took pity on the lad. Ned wanted to learn how to read so he could read poetry to a girl he was keen on - her name was Violet. In NSW there is an Edward Kelly marrying a woman called Violet. I have details on data base but haven't had time t check dates. Ned had also learnt to write beautifully fluent letters. However, I have a copy of a letter that someone gave me years ago and it was the time Ned was in jail. From the letter it shows that the alleged person it was from - Ned; could not read or write but had to get a warden to write the letter to send to his sister re his mother and to get him some clothes. He signed his name as X underneath.
From other researchers on the Reardon line, and other bits and pieces I have picked up - Dan allegedly said to his brother during the seige "Ned you are an educated man, you can read and write and you are a gentleman; you have never hurt anyone unless in self defence." Dan told Ned to escape because he was a rogue (Dan) and had willingly killed for the sake of it and his life would never amount to anything. He apparently crushed up cold soot from the fire and darkened his hair and beard, put the armour suit on and went out with guns blazing. Ned allegedly went through the floor boards and out the back. Dan hung on the gallows and Ned escaped to where ever.
It's very interesting and I believe provable if alot of people took the time to search the facts.
Regards,
Maree Agland
Movies and hearsay do not evidence make! In fact, it was Ned Kelly that was hanged in 1880 and not Dan. For supportive evidence link to 'History in dispute - Was Dan Hanged?'

18/050/3 Re: Ned

thankyou so much for helping me, i have found both books and am able to access them
thanks again
eveline
No worries

15/05/03 Re: Ned

hi
my name is Eveline, i am currently in Year 12 and doing my History Extension assignment on Ned Kelly, the question is:
How did Edward Kelly, the son of an irish catholic convict, an outlaw himself, become a hero of the Australian Culture.
i was hoping that you may be able to send me as much information as possible that addresses this question, as all i seem to find is information that contricts each other. i would really appreicate if you could. it would be so
helpful.
thanks
Your topic is an interesting one, but unfortunately there is not a simple answer to it. The answer to that particular question may lie, not so much in what Ned did, but in what was going on in Australia at the time. For a good analysis that may point you in the right direction - try reading Dr. Graham Seal's book 'Tell em i died game, the legend of Ned Kelly'. (Info on the book can be found here). For a great historical analysis that should help, read Dr John McQuilton's 'The Kelly Outbreak' (which may be a bit tricky to find but will be well worth your reading). Good luck with your assignment.

13/05/03 Re:

Hello,
My name is Dean Mayes and I am a a descendant of Joseph Mayes who was a Constable then Sergeant in the Victorian Police Force and who served under Superindendant Frances Hare during the hunt for the Kelly Gang.
He was a member of the Cave Party who hunted throughout Victoria for the Kelly Gang and was a prominent witness in the Royal Commision into the Victorian Police Force which took place in 1881 and 1882 (he gave evidence in May 1882).
I am seeking to get in touch with people who may help me find information concerning my great great grandfather or people who may be descendants of Victorian Police Troopers who served with my great great grandfather. I have enclosed photographs of Joseph Mayes.
I would appreciate any assistance you can give.
Sincerely,
Dean Mayes.
Joseph Mayes is standing forth from left.

11/05/03 Re: The Ned Kelly movie

hi my name is emma burrowes and i am doing an assignment on the Movie Ned Kelly. We have to write about what is true in the movie and what is fiction. Another question: What is the go with the scenery all the birds and plants? also i would like to no why they didn't put the hanging of ned in the movie. if you have some information on the movie and some reports from the directer it would be greatly appreciated if you could send it to (email withheld)
thanks Emma
We have covered the main points of the movie that are fiction, much of the rest (i.e. the parts we didn't mention) are true. It is a very complicated and involved history and therefore not easy to rattle off the truths vrs fiction. For a quick run down however - link here (However, the main parts of fiction are: There was no such character as Julia Cook - we actually cannot even be sure if Ned even had a girlfriend or not (no clear evidence), Joe did not actually wear a dress when he shot Aaron, the gang did not drink horses blood and were not starved by the police, and there was definately no circus at Glenrowan!) Not sure what birds and plants you are refering to? Perhaps they were simply there to show it was country victoria!?! Sounds like you need to browse the official movie site, which may answer the rest of your questions. (Apparently the director did not want to show the trial and hanging as that was really the most depressing part of Ned's life and he didn't want to end it on such a low note, so he stuck with the legendary part - but don't quote this.)

9/05/03 Re: (email below)

i was hoping for info on each member of the gang, and the glenrowan siege. thanks for your help.
andrew
Sorry Andrew, still not specific enough. The information you are after is extensive and complicated. But you could start in my Quick History section.

9/05/03 Re:

i am a year 12 student at mooroopna secondary college and i require information in light of the history of the indavidual kelly gang members. please help me.
thank-you
Andrew Hedges
What kind of information? You will have to be much more specific if you want help.

5/05/03 Re: Ned's escape

Hello, my name is Dylan Howell, and i am in year 9, attending De La Salle college Malvern, Australia. on Friday last week (2/5/03) we attended the movie 'Ned Kelly'. it was a very exiting movie, but quite innacurate, as you would know (if you have seen it). For instance. The siege
at Glenrowan in the movie was portrayed as the Kell's coming out, and massacring the police, when in actual fact, only one policeman was injured at the siege.
Anyway, that isn't what I wrote to you about. I was wondering if you had heard the conspiracy theory, that in actual fact, Ned Kelly got away, and that Dan took his place in the noose instead? that is said to be the reason why Ellen Kelly (Ned's mum) said 'Die like a Kelly'.
I am deeply sorry that i could not write you a better written, more correctly punctuated e-mail, but it is presently 10:11pm on a school night. Would you mind writing back to me, and sharing your view on the issue in question?
Sincerely,
Dylan Howell

Ned Kelly was hanged and not Dan. For supportive evidence, along with further examination of Ellen's comments, link to 'History in dispute - Was Dan Hanged?'

3/05/03 re: conspricy

look at the resemblence the picture from bail up days befor ned was hanged and a picture of dan when he was young look at ned in the 2nd pic of yours with raised eyebrows
Dan-neah godfree
It is unclear what the "conspricy" (conspiracy?) here is, or what the significance of the perceived similarities in the photos are, but it seems to be that Dan-neah suspects that the 1880 photo of Ned looks more like a photo of Dan, than it does the Pentridge (?) photo of Ned, implying perhaps that possibly there was a switch made? This myth has surfaced before, and been dispelled. Dan died at Glenrowan in June of 1880, and Ned was hanged in Melbourne 5 months later. Ned's various likenesses haves been tested and matched by experts, so it is not possible that Dan and Ned switched identities. Ned and Dan were brothers. If there is a resemblance, it is because they came from the same genetic background, sharing both parents. It is certainly not uncommon for family members to have similar facial features.
L
ink to 'History in dispute - Was Dan Hanged?'

1/05/03 Re: 1993 Ned Kelly: Man & Myth Revisited

Back in November 1993, the CAE held one of its fabulous symposiums on Ned. In a moment of madness, I volunteered to transcribe the tapes and copies were sent to the participants. However, one tape, Professor Weston Bate's "Local, Regional, National and International Strands In The Kelly Drama" had gone missing. This was a great pity as it was a great scene-setting talk - there's far more to the Kelly story than first meets the eye! It's a long shot, but did anyone happen to make their own tape copy or even know what happened to the original? If so, I'd love to hear from them.Anyone who'd like a copy of the other transcribed tapes can contact me at mandpmatta@yahoo.com.au. They were well worth reading.Best wishesMarian Matta

28/04/03 Re: Ned Kelly Speak

I'm unsure if you can assist but I'll ask anyway. Is there any evidence, either oral or written, from contemporaries of Ned that Ned spoke with an Irish accent? Did General Monash or others who met him ever mention anything about his way of speaking etc.. I would imagine that, if he did, it would be very slight and would possibly be a hangover from his early childhood.
Any assistance or pointing me in the right direction for further enquiries would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Rene Pedersen
Brisbane.
This is seemingly a touchy subject for many people and one that has not as yet been resolved to the satisfaction of all. There is some oral history evidence that suggests that Ned did speak with an Irish accent, though not specifically how heavy. However, recent debate has seen linguistics experts strongly dispute this, sighting evidence that an Australian accent was well and truly established by Ned's lifetime. An excellent article that puts forth both sides of the story can be found here, also some months ago there was a heated debate in the feedback section of ironoutlaw that is worth reviewing.

27/04/03 Re: Last Stand

Is there any record of the number of people who were killed/injured at the Last Stand?
Regards
Bob
Bridget Reardon's head grazed by bullet, Michael Reardon shot, Jack Jones killed (died in hospital soon after the seige), Martin Cherry killed, George Metcalf wounded in eye and died a few months later, Jane Jones died much later (1882) allegedly from injuries suffered
Joe Byrne, Dan Kelly and Steve Hart all die. Ned Kelly was wounded.
Insp. Hare wounded in wrist. One of the blacktrackers was also wounded (but not severely).

25/04/03 Re:

Hello. My name is Jamie Langley from South Morang. I am writing this to show you a photo you may have seen before.. It is a pic of the Kelly lookout over the Woolshed vally below that is clouded over. I am a coach driver from Victoria who has shared the kelly story with thousands of people from all over the world. My family found this site after a bit of local knoledge as in park rangers and decinded to take the plunge with my new digital camera...Anyway, it is a good pic of where the gang from time to time looked down from...in future I will produce pics of the Kelly cave if you don`t have them. I have seen them from a distance but with a 3yr old at my side,,,,well you know.................Look forward to a response
Kind regards
jamie Langley

22/04/03 Re: Could you help me

Hi my name is Karen and I am doing an essay about Ned Kelly for my English Tafe course and one of the questions is What was the Jerilderie Letter? I have an idea but are you able to give me the exact answer to the question it would help me a lot because in the books and web sites I have looked at, thay are unclear as to what the letter was and who it was for.
Thank-you so much
Karen
This is a complex question and your essay could examine the topic more closely, however the following is a brief analysis for you to start from. In determining what the 'Jerilderie letter' was, or what its ultimate purpose was, one must first look at why it was written. The original handwritten copy was written by Joe Byrne, Ned Kelly's words were recorded - no doubt with Joe's, and possibly others, interjections and suggestions. We know it was written with the goal of having it published, presumably in multiple, unfortunately its publication was prevented when it was given to the police, so we are not entirely sure how it would have been used in viable terms. Most Kelly researchers however, believe the intention of the document was for publication and distribution to newspapers and the general populace of Victoria. Publishing and distributing such a document was the only means available to the gang of countering the claims made against them by the police and press.
It was a long document containing Ned's personal history and seemly written essentially as an exercise in public relations, as well as, a method of threatening the authorities in the form of a manifesto. In it Ned attempted to explain and justify his actions through a personal history, apparently to effect a change in the general publics perception of him and the Kelly gang and answer his critics. It outlines his version of the troubles he had with the police, including details of the incidents that led to, and made, the Kelly gang outlaws. It also contained warnings to the authorities and threats of Ned's intended actions if certain perceived injustices weren't rectified, along with motives, which are explained in a list of grievances against Ned and his family, in an attempt to justify the Kelly gangs past, present, and future actions.

14/04/03 Re: Ned Kellys Armour.

I'm fascinated by Ned Kellys armour!
Do you have or can you give me details on were to find out the measurements of Ned Kellys armour?
It would much appreciated if you can help.
Regards, Paul Karlson
As far as we are aware the measurements are not recorded publicly, but must be available as many replicas are being produced. Your best bet is to contact the State Library of Victoria where Ned's armour is held (and is on display until May 25th).

14/03/03 Re: Information requested

Hi
I was told by a cousin of mine in NSW that the News there last week first week in April covered a story about the recent Bushfires in NE Victoria and how during the later stages of the clean up they came across a tunnel leading from Aaron Sherrits house. I never saw the report and was hoping that someone an fill me on this story and its validity
Thanks Roz Hamilton
Related article link

10/04/03 Re: Last Outlaw book

There is a copy of the production booklet that accompanied the series "The Last Outlaw" for sale on eBay.
Dylan Hyde

10/04/03 Re: Ned of course

Karina raises an interesting question (below) and one not often asked. So, how accurate is the Last Outlaw miniseries? That is a more complex and difficult question than it would seem at first glance. The reason for the difficulty is that both the mini series and our most well known book on Ned are written by the same person. The series is, in a way, an extension of the book 'A Short Life' by Ian Jones. The same story telling methods were employed in both and I loved both. The question, however, is one of accuracy and I feel it must be noted that if one simply compares historical details to Ian's work alone they will see the series as perfectly accurate. Yet every author's opinion can be seen in their own work, and Ian is not an exception. In his generally historically accurate work Ian, as we know, also uses a lot of unsubstantiated oral history, and in fact some of it was gained from people with little connection to the figures in the story. Of course Ian was not alone in writing the series and others would have had influence (possibly even about things Ian did not agree with), but to me, his influence stands out. For example Tom Lloyd's position in the story agrees with Ian's but not necessarily everyones. Ian says he was the 5th member of the gang, and he may have been - we don't know, but it is interesting that recently at the exhibition at the State library they called Kate Kelly the 5th member. It is very likely that a combination of people assisted the gang's survival in a vital way - not simply the focus being on one person. In other words, different historians believe different "facts", and yet many aspects of the mini-series can be viewed the same light as Ian's book. Another example would be the treatment of Aaron as traitor, and of Ward's 'setting up' of Aaron, this is Ian's analysis. Ned's 'romance' with Kate Lloyd, which was denied by both Kate's daughter and Jim Kelly, is only suggested in Ian's work. So, such things in the series clearly have Ian's influence, but are not necessarily substantiated historically.
In regards to general historical accuracy little things do appear, like how I have since learned that Anton was in fact quite petrified - but in the series is portrayed as somewhat of a dumb bunny. The way the Glenrowan issue was shown is interesting: The fact that the derailment of the train was meant to kill the police, and the fact that Ned was willing to kill anyone on board indiscriminately - was skimmed over in the series, downplaying the negative aspects of Ned's thinking. The often called 'Declaration of the Republic' document and related uprising is treated as 'fact' - when historically speaking it is nothing of the sort. We are still waiting for evidence to support it to surface.
We all love how Ian tells the story, but so far no one seems capable of making a completely accurate Kelly film, so The Last Outlaw does stand out as the best historically. I would love to see a more balanced film, but I do not see that ever happening, perhaps the only way this can occur would be in a documentary.
I agree with Karina's comments about how Australian kids learn more in school about American history than their own. It would be nice if this was rectified, the problem being, just look at how many versions of the Kelly story there are - which one should be taught at school?
DAVE WHITE

9/04/03 Re: Ned of course

Love the website. I lived in Melbourne back in 1980 and remembered the centenery celebrations very well. I recently viewed the mini series The Last Outlaw again after 20 odd years and it was great to see. I haven't seen the new Heath Ledger movie as I have a feeling it was probably made more for the American market but I may see it further down the track.
My question to you is how historicaly accurate do you consider The Last Outlaw to be, I personally think it is a brilliant piece of T.V. but accurate or not?
I have signed your petition for channel 7 to release it and I will write them a letter shortly pushing my arguements as this is along with the Eureka Stockade one of the most important periods in Australlian history that is mainly overlooked in the classrooms these days.
It is a shame that Aussie kids seem to know more about American history than important events in our own.
Sorry for my rantings and ravings but it was good to get things off my chest.
Karina Davidson
Tweed Heads South NSW
No need to apologise for "ranting "- as that is what feedback sections are for. The Outlaw mini-series is certainly the most accurate drama produced to date. But as with any drama, some unsubstantiated aspects of history were obviously included, but on the whole it is historically based. If you are looking for historical accuracy, there are a number of documentaries being produced at present, which hopefully will distinguish between fact and folklaw.
I am pleased you signed the petition to release the series (assuming you mean the one on Ironoutlaw).

6/04/03 Re: Dan Kelly

I'm in year eleven and I'm doing a project for school on the Kelly gang, particularly on the rumour surrounding the alleged deaths of Dan Kelly and Steve Hart.
I've read the articles on your website, and I would like to be able to give a conclusion to the story. Do you have any idea whether the body of Mr Ryan or any of the other mentioned bodies awaiting DNA findings are in fact, one of the Kelly men, or Hart?
I'd greatly appreciate your reply.
Sincerely,
Victoria Gladwin
Two bodies burnt beyond recognition were found in the ruins of the Glenrowan Inn in June 1880, and were identified (by the methods available at the time) as Dan Kelly and Steve Hart. They were buried and mourned. It was well before the days of DNA testing, however all other evidence gathered to date suggest that the bodies found were that of Dan and Steve, and none has been produced that disproves it. Contemporary witnesses suggest that Steve and Dan were the only two people involved in the siege that were unaccounted for, and no other people were missing. The authorities confirmed their deaths, as did their relatives. Therefore it is somewhat imprecise to use the term "alleged deaths" - it would be more accurate to say 'alleged survival'.

Dan or Steve surviving Glenrowan is part of the mythology of the Kelly legend. To date, no scientific tests, or positive DNA findings, have been announced, and no verified historical evidence exists that proves they survived. It is therefore only unverified claims, and hearsay that suggests it is theoretically possible they could have survived.
There have been numerous men over the years since who have 'claimed' to be Dan or Steve, but none have offered proof, instead offering only unsubstantiated tales and stories or hearsay (which would not stand up in a court of law as proof positive, and thus cannot be treated as factually correct). The most notable flaw in all these men's 'claims' (apart from the fact that there is more than one) has been that none of them ever sought to make contact with any family member (Kelly or Hart) who could have positively identified them, or alternately, contradicted their claims. This reluctance indicating that they were not genuine. Mr Ryan's (Tindall) is no exception to this, as he apparently widely spoke of his "true" identity - but seemingly only to those who did not know Dan Kelly personally.
The Ryan test may not yet have been performed. However DNA tests do not normally take more than a few months to complete, and the bone sample was taken from Mr Ryan's body back in 2001, a result therefore should have been available by now (even if it only to 'exclude' DNA matches). No result of the test on Ryan's DNA has yet been publicised, which is perhaps a strong indication that, if done, the result was negative. Additionally the town he lived in, Ipswich in Queensland, have been using Mr Ryan's claim to Dan Kelly's identity, in an attempt to boost tourism. Thus it is reasonable to assume that if the test performed did prove positive, the Ipswich council would have sought to have the result made public immediately - they have not done this (as far as we know). However Councilor Tully has recently been on TV saying a result will not be known for another 3 months from now. Either way, you will be unable to make any conclusions in your school assignment about the Ryan test.
Until any test results are shown (and verified) as positively identifying Mr Ryan (or anyone else) as Dan Kelly or Steve Hart, researchers can only assume they both died at Glenrowan. If in the future a test does suggest a DNA match that indicates Dan or Steve may have survived then this, currently hypothetical, aspect of Kelly mythology can be taken more seriously.
Good luck with your project, let me know how you get on.

5/04/03 Re: Bil of Rights and Constitution

Does it say anywhere in the Bill of rights or the Constitution, or in any documents of our forefathers that we should have a separation of church and state?
Thank you.
George Maloy
Was Ned one of our forefathers? Hello?

4/04/03 Re: great stuff

First of all your site is really great!
Ok to the good stuff! I recently met Laurence Kinlan and Philip Barantini and they are so sweet ! they are really nice guys with wicked senses of humor.
They are really talented guys too!
Wendy Lea
NB. Laurence plays Dan Kelly and Philip plays Steve Hart in the 'Ned Kelly' movie.

1/04/03 Re: please reply

To whom ever it may concern. I have recentley read some of the facts you have of the amazing Australian Ned Kelly. I was wondering if you could please help me in sending me as much information on him as you possibley can. I have had a sudden interest in the man and I am finding it extremely difficult to find any valid information on him. I would really appreciate it. My e-mail address is (withheld) and I would really appreciate it. Thankyou very much for your assistance in the matter.
Yours sincerely Josephine Crawley
Age:14years old
Thankyou so much!

30/03/03 Re: another film about Ned in the works

Hi everyone - congrats on the site and it's quite good and a perfect compliment to the Iron Outlaw one - anyway just thought you might like to know about my film about Ned which is in pre-production at the moment - it's called The Sash and there is a web site for it at
http://www.mango-a-gogo.com/sash/sash.htm

Perhaps you could make a link for it on your movies page or feedback section. I'm afraid it won't be at the budget of the current one! but still will be pretty good
Regards
Scot McPhie
Director
Mango-a-GoGo Productions Pty Ltd
http://www.mango-a-gogo.com

27/03/03 Re:

Don't know if any of the Kelly mob might be interested, but have started a new website, a sort of internet magazine format, outbackvoices.com
-Bryan Clark, CVentralian Media Services, Alice Springs

25/03/03 Re:

i have recently become interested in the Kelly's and their history, it’s strange that what no teacher in NSW was ever able to teach me i have now committed myself to.
i have read books and what I’ve found is that the authors always apply their own spin and give their own personal version of the Kelly sage. Even when original documents and facts still exist they are played Chinese whispers with. This is not what i am looking for. I wish to have details that have not passed through any filters.
I wish to research more but i can not travel, i have no contacts and i have no money to spare. I have naught but my thanks to offer you. But if you have any advise or suggestions or anything, websites, names, contacts, email addresses of anyone who might be willing to help me, eyewitness account, descendents, anything that is at all connected with the Kelly gang than i would me most grateful. lexietwentytwo@yahoo.com
I hope to hear from you, lexie…

p.p.s, i just want to add (and this is not merely a suck up to render you more willing to wriet back, well not completley anyway...) that your website is the best that i've visited and i enjoyed reading through it. Where do you find all of that stuff? really. because that is exactly the kind of reports, information etc that i am looking for. lexie...
Most of the research for this site is done from original and contemporary documents, newspaper articles, parliamentary papers etc., which can be found at the State Library of Victoria (which won't help you much Lexie) but the Vic Library does have a site (with the Jerilderie letter and armour), many other relevant research documents can be found online at
the Public Records Office and Ned Online sites, along Deakin Uni's Stringybark Creek site with depending on what areas of the Kelly story you are particularly interested in researching. Bill Denheld's new site is also worth a look. If you are interested in Joe Bryne Mike Lawson has a good site about him at Joeonline.
Try to get your hands on a copy of The 1881 Royal Commission report, which is full of contemporary eyewitness accounts, a library in your state may have one. The office of Births, Deaths and Marriages will post you copies of documents (but will charge a small fee).
There are of course numerous Kelly books around, and yes they can be contradictory and, as you said, can have their own 'spin' added, but the more you read the more clearly you will be able to tell how factually consistent they are - or are not. The more authors you read the easier it is to tell how influenced they are by their own opinions and interpretations, and by publication dates you will be able to get an idea of how much an author has been influenced by previous ones. Some absolute must have books include: Max Brown's 1948 Australian Son has been the basis for many authors works since and therefore is very worth reading. For an excellent and objective account that puts the story in historical perspective read John McQuilton's 'Kelly Outbreak'. Whether or not you like his style of writing, John Molony's 'I am Ned Kelly' is reliable when it comes to factual accuracy and is therefore good to check other books against ( it is easy to find as it has recently been re-released). John Sadleir's 1913 'Recollections of a Victorian Police Office' gives a contemporary account from the 'side' of the police, (you may have to hunt around at libraries for that one however). As with any historical research it is a good idea to do as much cross-referencing as you can. For a comprehensive book review list check out ironoutlaw.
Oral history is also a very valuable part of the Kelly story and its reliability is best judged by its source. Thanks for your email and good luck with your quest Lexie.

23/03/03 Re: Ned’s accent

G’day to all at Bailup. You may be interested to know about an article that appeared in the Saturday 22-Mar-2003 edition of the Sydney Morning Herald by Philip Derriman. It questions the use of an Irish accent for Ned Kelly. The article (News Review page 57), titled; “Begorrah, Ned, or maybe g’day?”, is a well written piece and puts both sides of the argument across. See what you think after reading the article. Of course there is a mountain of proof to back an Aussie accent and only hearsay and guesswork against.

It would be well worth including on your website if you can provide a link to it. LET THE TRUTH BE KNOWN (Ned was an Aussie).
Mick Fitzsimons

12/03/03 Re: Compliments to your site and my investigation on Neds Jerilderie Letter

First of all - Excellent site. Your information is informative and tries to present the facts of the time as they have arrived through time (hence -your reference to oral communication etc). I believe the biggest area unexplored in all the Kelly history is the Jerilderie letter. No one has yet explored its contents piece by piece in an attempt to present it in the manner that can be read by the general public. I have read text transcripts and read the first few pages of the author in his hand writing at the State Library exhibit. It is confusing and harder to understand than an old Charles Dickens Novel.. I still believe it requires someone to go through it and present in modern day language and also explore areas referred to within it. To this end I am exploring it myself and asking questions to clarify things as I go along
(I earlier requested any information on Mr Johns).. I find it amazing that we have had a hand writing expert analyse the author but no-one examine the contents, meanings and validity. I have always had a fascination for Ned K and seduced by the contradiction of the man. I feel sorting out the (Ned and or friends cry for understanding) letter of the time could help us all understand what happened a bit better.
Harry Shrubshall
Montmorency

12/03/03 Re: Who was Mr Johns ?

In his JERILDERIE LETTER - Ned states his first major tangle with the law involved horse stealing and mentions a Mr Johns. Reading between the lines it appears Johns was the fellow that led McCormacks horse away from Greta to help pull Goulds wagon out of a bog. This was no doubt at a request for help from Ned and or his mother which later led to the feud between the Goulds and McCormacks.
Question: Does anyone know anything more about who Mr Johns was ? Ned only gives a brief mention of him but my feeling is he was definately implicated in getting the horse that got Ned into so much trouble.
(TRYING TO SORT OUT JERILDERIE LETTER)
Harry Shrubshall
Montmorency

11/03/03 Re: Where is Smokey Dawson's Ranch?

Hello, On http://www.bailup.com/NewsDave.htm you mentioned "the movie was filmed at Smoky Dawson's ranch". Do you have a rough location (nearby town) or address for this place? Thanks for any help - it is proving hard to find info!
Torsten Seemann
Brian McDonald informed us that the ranch was at Ingleside, a suburb in the northern part of Sydney between Mona Vale and Terrey Hills.

7/03/03 Re: Huts at Stringybark Creek

Perhaps I'm just an aging hippie but I don't like to see a lot of unnecessary conflict. I'd like to point out that Ian Jones and Bill Denheld essentially agree on the location of the police camp at Stringybark Creek. Bill's finding of the remains of two huts on the opposite bank confirms Ian's location which he found through comparing the Burman photos with the geography of the place. (And long before them both, there were many people who knew where it was.) Neither gentleman wants to see the place turned into a tourist spot but those of us who like to stand and dream would prefer to know we're dreaming in the right place.
Best wishes
Marian Matta

4/03/03 Re: Ian Jones - Codswallop!

I read with interest how Ian Jones calls Bill Denheld's findings at Stringybark Creek (reported in The Age newspaper 'New Ned Kelly find leaves theory of shootings up the creek") as Codswallop. ( John Faine's morning program on ABC 3LO )
I'm a keen fisherman and Codswallop means ' Fishguts'. I have had a good read of Bill's Two Huts at Stringybark Ck, and to me its hats off to Bill for his most informative writings on a very important location.
To me the 'New Ned Kelly find on theory of shootings leaves Ian Jones up the creek holding the Codswallop while Bill appears to have caught the Big Fish!!!.
Ian's comments sounds like sour grapes to me!
Can we invite Mr Jones to elaborate ?.
Richard

4/03/03 Re: general goss!

Firstly a big thank you to Dave White and any other folks involved for keeping anyone interested in Kellyana up to date on all happenings by way of you brilliant informative website.
I think iron outlaw is great but for every tit bit on Kelly news and views/research your site is brilliant!!!!
The Melbourne Herald Sun have printed several anti kelly letters recently/not many pro Kelly either!!!
I can confirm The Herald Sun is anti-Kelly as I have written to them many times with Only one story printed, it seems either only do gooders or members of the Police appreciation socirty get printed.
I have every respect for Ian Jones his books Have inspired many to follow Neds trail , and even though Bills Denhelds Police camp theory is slightly different to Ians on the Stringybark police camp site we need more folk out there like Bill Denheld who have the time and energy to investigate history and are willing to share it with everyone. Well done Bill!!!
Keep up the good work bailup.com!!!!!!!!!
Trevor Harbord

1/03/03 Re: close family link to ned kelly and his gang

Hello ,my name is John Brown ,I am 52 yrs. old and am one of four living children of Kenneth brown and Nancy Brown. My father died in 1981 and it was only recently that my younger brother and older sister were sifting through his papers when they came upon his mother's birth, marriage and death certificates.As ourgrandmother had died in 1939 and dad told us little about his parents,we were fascinated to find out more about our ancestor. Her name was Jane Brown ,wife of Matthew Brown ,they were married in Benalla in 1895. Her maiden name was Lloyd and as it turns out she was a daughter of Tom Lloyd and Jane Lloyd [nee. Quinn] It didn't take long to discover that Jane Quinn was the sister of Ned's mother, Ellen,and Tom Lloyd was the ''Old Tom'' referred to in all the Kelly stories.as you can imagine we four, middleaged ,people were very excited to find out that we had a close family connection to major players in events that were of a significant nature in australia's history. We can only guess at why this was never mentioned to us ,I can only presume that, looking for employment in the early 1900's when good jobs were scarce, being a catholic was bad enough without having the added stigma of being the son of ned Kelly's first cousin.
Feel free to contact me regarding this little tale, tours faithfully John Brown

20/02/03 Re: web site

Thanks for the information you provided for me re William [Jacky Jacky] Westwood.
Your web site is extremely interesting and easy to follow. Keep up the good work.
Cheers,
Margaret
Adelaide.

19/02/03 Re: Ian Jones's comment on John Fain's radio program that my finding is 'Codswallop'

Ian Jones is criticizing a story, theory and hypothesis on the importance of two fireplaces found at Stringybark Creek that may prove to be the location of the Shingle Hut that Kelly wrote about and positively identifies where the two police were killed by the Kelly's at Stringybark Ck. Apart from the very well written article by Geoff Strong 'The Age ' 10 Feb 2003, my story has not been fully told.
In my story I make several conjective conclusions, one being the 'Shingle Hut' connection to the site. I have sound reference material to back this up, however there are several other options that can be explored,- I would like to leave that up to other researchers, including Mr. Ian Jones. My hypothesis is supported by a 36 page report published on the internet for all to see at no charge.
In point form my hypothesis covers items as follows,
Analysis of the Burman photo and exactly from where the photos were taken.
How the fireplaces were found.and the importance of the huts known to have existed here back in 1879.
Analysis of the Kelly tree from the earliest photo to the present day.

Why the police went to Stringybark Ck? The finding in the archives, a letter suggesting The Kellys hiding in a cave near Blue Range and to find this cave the writer says to draw a line between Stringybark Ck and Euroa and the cave will be found where that line crosses Blue Range. The letter was dated 18 October 1878 and eight days later three police were dead. Royal Commission Report dated 1881 after the Kelly uprisings indicate the police acted on that letter but decided to shove it to the bottom of the drawer so that the police themselves could claim the reward of 200 pounds themselves.
What was found at the huts using metal detectors indicate how the huts were constructed and an 1885 penny help date one of the huts.
Back up references, G. Wilson Hall's book 'The Outlaws of the Wombat Ranges, Ian Jones's Ned Kelly Seminar Papers 1993, Public Records Office of Victoria website Ned on Line, writings by Gary Dean, historical notes by Sheila Hutchinson who lived near Stringybark Ck and who found a Mansfield Guardian report dated 1877 where a Walter Lynch is sued for burning down Percy Broomfield's hut at Stringybark Creek 15 months before the Kelly's shot the policemen there. Keith McMenomy's big Ned Kelly book.
I would appreciate your further interest in directing the readers to denheldid.com/twohut www.nedkellysworld.com.au and www.ironoutlaw.com allowing further debate and hopefully constructive criticism.
Thanking you,
Bill Denheld

12/02/03 Re: Re: Ned Kelly Movie;- email by Matt Smith 21/01/03

At last, someone else has finally picked up on this absurd aspect of the latest film on Ned, depicting him with a “dodgy Irish accent”. Also, I have never come across the statement, “My Irish brethren” and find it highly unlikely that Ned would have ever uttered these words. Ned classed himself as an Australian and was all for a Republic. The republic that Ned envisaged was for “all” people (not just thew Irish), in this new land, the land of his birth. I believe that when the latest film is released, there will be more people questioning why Ned is portrayed as Irish and not Australian.
For further reading on this, look below in this section to; 26/11/02 New documentary being made and 10-06-02 Ned Kelly’s accent.
Mick Fitzsimons

31/01/03 Re: Sunday HeraldSun

You have done well. I feel that Derek B. has had his time as a Journalist, just sensationlism. but if we answer him, only makes it worse. I have written to him and his Editor on another occasion, but no answer (no manners. Lola. (nee LLOYD)

29/01/03 Re: Sunday HeraldSun

My name is Matt Sumner and I'm a constant visitor to your great site. You may have already seen it but there is an atrocious article about Ned by a fellow called Derek Ballantine in last Sunday's Melbourne HeraldSun. I think it was supposed to be advertising one of the new Ned exhibitions in Melbourne but it seemed to turn into an ill informed rant about what a bad man Ned was and how stupid we are to remember his legend.
I fired off a letter complaining about the articles inacurracies and misleading nature and I attacked the papers credibility for printing it but I doubt we will be seeing it in the letters pages. They don't seem to like being criticised themselves. Just thought you might like to know in case you hadn't seen it. Keep up the good work on the site.
Sincerely Matt Sumner
Thanks Matt, yes we saw the article. For anyone who hasn't, Click Here for excerpts and my comments.

27/01/03 Re: The Last Outlaw

Regarding the release of the mini-series 'The Last Outlaw'. Pegasus Productions and Channel Seven own the series. Pegasus Productions (Ian Jones and Bronwyn Binns) gave permission in October 2001 to have the series released, and to be made available at 'Ned: The Exhibition'.
After speaking with Ian and Bronwyn, I can tell you that the final decision is with Seven. Hopefully they will grant permission to have the series released very soon.I thought you should know that the ball is well and truly in Seven's court.
That is the latest! I will drop you a line should anything change, but in the meantime I would recommend everybody signing Brad's petition, and .....being patient - hopefully not long now!. What do they say? All good things....
Cheers, Matt Shore
'The Legend Of Ned Kelly'.

21/01/03 Re: Ned Kelly Movie

I saw the trailer for the new Ned Kelly movie starring Heath Ledger - I was a bit surprised by the dodgy Irish accent, but that aside is there any record of Ned Kelly ever saying "my Irish brethren" - or is it just a Hollywood like attempt to make the film more appealing to the rest of the world? It pisses me off, Ned Kelly was born in Australia, never left the country, and died an Australian legend - so why are they trying to portray him as an Irishman? What do other people think about this, and what are the facts?
Matt Smith
VIC, Australia

19/01/03 Re: Last Outlaw

Could you please tell me where i can purchase the movie "The last outlaw" starring John Jarrott. Simon.
Unfortunately the mini-series 'The Last Outlaw' is not currently available for public purchase anywhere. Channel 7 and Pegasus productions own it and seemingly are unwilling to release it on DVD or video at this stage. They have given the public no explanation, but presumably the hesitance is for legal or economic reasons. However there is a petition to them requesting its release on ironoutlaw.com that you can support. If you wish to sign it click here.

18/01/03 Re: Ned Kelly The Movie

Ned Kelly The Movie
Premier 22nd March 2003
Released 27th March

It is with much delight I see the Premiere is not to be on the 27th March as previously stated in the press, but now the 22nd. The 27th March is the 80th anniversary of Ellen Kelly's death, a significant date in it's self.
Ellen

2/01/03 Re: Ned Kelly at Point Gellibrand

Hi, I am doing some research into Ned Kelly's time in prison at Point Gellibrand. I know he was incarcerated on the Hulk Sacramento, but I would like to know dates and whether this was where he met Powel.
Kind regards,
Jenny Gardner
Ned was transferred from Pentridge to the prison ship Sacramento on June 25th 1873, a few months later he was moved to the Battery nearby. He was released in February 1874.
He had met Harry Power (we assume you mean Power?) some 4 years earlier, in 1869.

 

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