Email Vault 2003
This page records the past
feedback from readers. The emails contained in this feeback section
do not necessarily represent the opinions of the creator and contributor/s
of this website.
Your say (and
29/12/03 Re: Sister Kate
I have recently read Jean
Bedford's novel "Sister Kate" and am wondering what you think
about it. I decided to do some investigation as to the basic history of
the Kellys and found your site. I can't admit to reading every word, but
what I did read had no mention of the Kelly sisters. Can you recommend
a (print) history of the Kellys that is fairly even-handed so that I can
check some of the details in the novel. I'd like to try to work our what
is fictionalised nad what is historical.
'Sister Kate' is very much
a fictional account of Ned's sister; and cannot be used to accurately
follow her life. If you are keen to delve further into the true facts
of Kelly history, two of the more accurate books currently available,
and ones I would recommend first, include Professor John Molony's 'Ned
Kelly', and Keith McMenomy's 'NK Authentic Illustrated history', both
of which include information on Kate Kelly. (Professor Molony is probably
the best place to start for a general overveiw, as it is highly accurate
great granddaughter, Ellen Hollow, wrote a piece for ironoutlaw that you
should find interesting, at the following link: http://www.ironoutlaw.com/html/writings_hollow.html
There is also a book Women and bushrangers by D. Balcarek
and G. Dean, which includes a short section devoted to Kate.
21/12/03 Re: Ned Kelly -
The Real Story
A couple of days ago I received
Barrie Dowdall's Video "NED KELLY ...THE REAL STORY". (Great
spoof on Peter Carey) This film truly tells the Ned Kelly story, perhaps
in the style of Keith Mc Menomy. Always factual and historical, Barrie's
film is the Irish version made in conjunction with Gregory Miller, using
more than 32 hours of film footage shot in Victoria and Ireland. NED has
already been aired on Gaelic TV 4, and won the best film in the 'Stranger
than Fiction ' section at Dublin Film Festival in October this year. I
think for the international audience it sets up the story very well, where
as 'Besieged' aimed at the domestic
market, assumed every one knew the story and the myth. They are two very
different films. It would be great on curriculum. I loved Barrie's editing
and use of the footage much photo over / double image .... his pictorial
interpretation is very different from Gregory's " Besieged."
Barrie used more archival film and less of the enactment, very little
dialogue by the actors, mostly voice over. With more than 32 hours of
film edited to one hour there was plenty of scope, and from this has evolved
two films both telling the story as it should have been told in the past.
If anyone is interested in a copy the distributor is :
22 Newman Street, London
18/12/03 Re: Beseiged - The
Ned Kelly Story
I would really like to buy
a copy of the video recently produced BESEIGED..The Ned Kelly Story. Can
you tell me where it is available. I live in Melbourne.
Thanking you in anticipation.
'Beseiged' is not available in stores at this point, but VHS
copies can be purchased
for $38 plus postage,
DVDs available yet), via
the contact details below. (Ronin Films can post a copy to you in Melbourne).
Enquiries: Ronin Films www.roninfilms.com.au
for more information
PO Box 1005, Civic Square, Canberra ACT Australia 2608
Phone: 02 6248 0851 or Fax: 02 6249 1640
4/12/03 Re: Thank you and
Hi Bail up team , I am writing
to say thanks for your support over the last three years but I am bowing
out of the Ned Kelly exhibition. Matt will be continuing on and I am confident
the exhibition will be open sooner than people realise. As I have explained
to people I have a young family and it has finally taken it's toll on
me and my wife.
I wish you all the success in the world. Thanks also to your readers for
their support at both the Gaol exhibition and Southgate.
Long live Ned.
Thank you , Brendan Pearse
26/11/03 Re: kelly sites
I recently visited Kelly country
and was totally dismayed at the condition of all the sites of Kelly significance
as well as the general lack of respect for such an integral part of Australia's
history. I'm interested in researching possible restoration of the sites
and would appreciate my e address being passed on to anyone with information
or interest who I can network with on this.
I also hope to contact with anyone who has done the legal legwork on the
possibility of a posthumous pardon for the Kelly Gang. It probably sounds
pretty pie in the sky but I want to look into it anyway, if no-one has
I truly feel the tide has turned for Ned in the way Australia views their
number one legend, and that people who love Ned kelly need to move on
preserving and restoring the dignity of Ned's life away from the mythology
that has built up around him.
His dreams live in every person who supports the truth of Ned's life because
his story is much more than just that, it will always be symbolic in some
senses and we, as Australians have a part to play in seeing those dreams
of freedom realised.
The future is a mystery and it is open for us to direct.
Call me crazy but I don't think Ned Kelly is finished with us as a nation
just yet. lucie.
lucille colombo <email@example.com> (email
address published by request)
19/11/03 Re: Ned homosexual
I wish to comment on the misguided
remarks made by "No Name supplied" in
the e mail of 16 November 2003. I am confident that in Nicky Cowies
extremely well researched and excellently presented argument as to whether
Ned was ever married."No Name supplied" felt that within that
commentary there was inference that Ned was gay, simply because he was
a bachelor. I fail to see it.
It is said Steve Hart rode collected supplies disguised in womans
clothing, did that make him gay? I dont think so. Maggie and Kate
delivered supplies to the gang some times wearing trousers, did that make
them gay? Hardly.
None of the other gang members were married either, the life style they
chose left little time for courtship let alone marriage. I am sure there
was time for dalliance but brief it must have been.
It is a matter of speculation by some that Ned was in fact married, especially
since the emergence of Peter Carys fictional work and other comments
made by some "experts" claiming Ned was married when he clearly
was not. Hence, because of the "hype" Nicky felt the need to
explore the facts against the fiction. I congratulate her on her thorough
I am infuriated at the unprofessional
state of the article blatantly claming Ned Kelly was a homosexual, On
what grounds do you make these alligations?
By writing that you are saying that if you're not married, you're homosexual!
(No Name supplied)
It seems obvious from what you have written that you have not thoroughly
read, or perhaps not understood, the article
that you have apparently been so "infuriated" by. Somehow you
have managed to read the exact opposite of what is stated both throughout
the analysis, and in the conclusions. So, perhaps you could point out
the precise wording in the article that you have managed to interpret
as blatantly claiming Ned Kelly was a homosexual -
or exactly where in the article any such claim or "allegation"
is made? If you go back and re-read the article and all its conclusions
- slowly and carefully (if need be) - you will find that no "allegation"
of homosexuality was even hinted at anywhere in the article. To the contrary
- what you will find is a focus on the lack of evidence, along
with a considerable amount of information arguing against the hypothesis
that Ned was gay. You might also note that the topic is presented in the
"Myths" section. So, by all means be infuriated
if you wish - but surely you should really only be infuriated by things
that are actually stated in the article - and not by the complete
reverse of what is written.
many years ago i was going
through police records at the public records office in melbourne and i
came across a telegram from russel street police to glenrowan police that
said "interveiwed Ned's wife" i cant rember what else it said
as at that stage i had never seen anything to suggest he even had a wife
,so i became quite exited by the telegram.Since then i have searched and
so far i have not found anything to support that Ned did indeed have a
from veronica rowan
12/11/03 Re: Ned Kelly
can you give me some information
about Ned Kely not about anyone else involved thankyou Mitchell Arundel
What information in particular? It would
help if you were a little more specific.
Nicky you have done a good
job, with your discussion sheet on marriage, girlfriends of Ned. I was
there when Prof. John Maloney spoke to my father re Ettie(
Esther) Hart. I was not present, when Ian Jones spoke to Dad on the
same matter, but Dad & I had discussions on the same topic , he did
say, being Catholics(did not marry a cousin) he felt that Kate
was only a close cousin, as they were all very close, Catherine Lloyd
, Jane Lloyd and Ellen Kelly, the 3 sisters having there families, all
about the same time, they grew up together , were as close as Brothers
Lola Rowe nee Lloyd.
Thanks for your email Lola.
10/11/03 Re: Ned Kelly
I think Ned Kelly is a fraud. he copied Johnnie gilberts plans. I think
this was very unfair. I believe Ned is a villain and Johnnie is a hero
because he made records that noone will ever be able to do again. people
call Johnnie a villain because he shot people and stole money but isn't
that what Ned did.
9/11/03 Re: Ned Kelly photo
Please advise which web site
I can access to print a picture of Ned Kelly in armour.
Sorry Geoffrey, some photos of Ned exist
and some pictures of his armour exist -
but unfortunately none of Ned actually in the armour .
Well done Brian ! Myself and
Brad Webb did exactly the same thing. Some of the responses from the bidders
was absolutely uplifting! (I was even called a 'thoroughly decent gentleman'
by one bidder!)...
p.s Brian, thanks for the original Kelliana I've bought from you mate!
...Brian McDonald, as reliable as a 351 XB on a long country road ;)
3/10/03 Re: From Lola Rowe
I enjoyed your "History
in dispute" area"
You ask, why did the Sympathisers not continue the fight for a "Republic
of the North-East of Victoria" (oral history once again, the only
kind I have), an area that my Father and I discussed in detail, his answer
being, would you want to continue, when you had seen, Dan, Steve &
Joe killed, a Brother, two mates as close as brothers, common sense prevailed
and Neds, next in command was requested to send the Sympathisers to their
homes before more lives were lost. Lola
28/10/03 Re: Thanks
I would just like to thank
everyone at BailUp for the numerous amount of information you supplied
me with whilst I was writing an important essay on Ned Kelly for my University
Course; Australian Colonial History 1860- 1920. Without Bailup, I would
never have been able to complete my essay on time. Thankyou very much.
I published parts of the essay online at my Ned Kelly Fanlisting, http://tainted-dreams.org/nedkelly
if you want to read it. And dont forget to join the fanlisting while you
are at it :)
Cheer guys, and thanks again!
28/10/03 Re: Warning to Kelly
Word of Warning! Some have seen this "reward poster"
being offered on eBay and most of you are aware that it is a facsimile
and not an original. Unfortunately a lot of people have been tricked into
thinking it is an original by the description the seller has used.
When it was for sale a few weeks ago I was contacting bidders to inform
them it was not an original. Those that replied were very grateful of
the information. The winner, after being informed, told the seller where
to "get off" and refused to pay him. The seller has relisted
the "reward poster" with exactly the same wording and at the
time of writing 14 bids have been placed at a price of $201!!! The seller
became very sneaky too! He has made it a private auction so the bidders
names are kept secret!
Numerous e-mails to eBay have drawn a blank (they think it has been correctly
described) and to add insult to injury they have threatened me because
of "auction interference"!!!
The seller is aware that the poster is a facsimile because when it was
first listed I contacted him with the correct information (particularly
that one of the photos of Ned was taken the day before his execution)
... the result ... he reduced the opening bid from $100 to $15!
So people ... be aware that some people out there are ready to rip you
23/10/03 Re: Photos from
I have been browsing around the net for the photos from the Glenrowan
'showdown', but can't find any. I was wondering if you know where I can
photos are often re-produced in various places on the web, and in books.
The most comprehensive collection can be found in Keith McMenomy's 'Ned
Kelly The authentic illustrated history' Published by Hardie Grant
21/10/03 Re: An Enquiry
I was wondering if anyone
had any information on Constable William Phillips who was at the siege
Thank you for your time.
6/10/03 Re: Talk by John
After reading Dave Whites
review on, A Talk by ex Chief Justice of
Victoria John H. Phillips, I was amazed by a couple of quotes
from Mr. Phillips.
Edward Kelly, Daniel Kelly, Joseph Byrne, Steve Hart, Aaron Sherritt,
Sgt Kennedy, Const Lonigan, Const Scanlon and finally Judge Barry. The
saddest part of all was that all but one were Irish born.
Mr Phillips believes that all but one were Irish born! How can anyone
make any claim to know anything of the Kelly saga, when they think that
Ned was born in Ireland. Is it any wonder that some people (film makers
included), think that Ned spoke with an Irish accent instead of the early
Aussie accent that everyone else who was born here used. One can only
wonder what other mistakes Mr. Phillips has made.
Another quote from this article where Mr. Phillips was answering questions;-
Q - What was the death of Judge Barry? A - Pneumonia
I may be wrong here (and I would ask for Bailups opinion), but I
was under the impression that Judge Barry died from blood poisoning caused
by a carbuncle, as he had a tendency to suffer from them.
I took notes during this talk and paraphrased that into the story I wrote.
In relation to comments about the deaths caused by the Kelly gang, my
interpretation of Mr. Phillips comments,"they were all sons of Ireland
except one", was incorrect. I relayed those comments to say,"they
were all born in Ireland, except one", when in fact in this case
I should have written it exactly as he said it, "they were all sons
of Ireland, except one". Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.
Regarding Judge Barry's death: Source: Redmond Barry by Ann Galbally.
"16 Nov, sought treatment for a carbuncle.....his untreated diabetic
condition meant that he was prone to bacterial infections such as carbuncles
and now the bacteria had entered the bloodstream causing septicaemia......(pneumonia
cause of death on certificate)."
30/09/03 Re: Police constables
Have enjoyed your information
on the Kelly's. Regarding my search could you advise me if there was ever
a police man involved in or even shot and killed by the Kellys with the
name of Michael Cavanagh.
Thank you Eleanor Oberg
The only police killed by the Kellys were
those at Stringybark Creek, (Kennedy, Scanlon and Lonigan). However I
suggest you try contacting the police historical unit to see if a Michael
Cavanagh was involved in the police hunt for the Kelly gang.
23/09/03 Re: Kelly camp photo reveal Kelly chopped trees
Just recently, August 03, while looking at an original photo taken of
the Kelly Camp by a Tolmie family work party, ( within five years) of
the Kelly occupation of Bullock Creek 1878, I spotted in the background
of the photo some chopped trees. As the provenance of the photo is unquestionable,
the chopped trees are undoubtedly chopped to recover the bullet lead from
the trees as described by the reporter of The Argus newspaper :
At Kelly camp, Bullock Creek in every direction-
taking the hut as a standing point we saw trees which were marked with
bullet holes, from five to fifty having been fired into each, at ranges
varying from 20 to 400 yards. The bullets being afterwards chopped out,
were melted down, and converted again into their former state.
Constable Frank James, only one month after the killings at Stringybark
Creek wrote to his supervisor Superintendent Sadlier: On
examining the trees within range of the loopholed hut we found that they
had been used as targets for rifle- practice, hundreds of bullets having
been fired into them and then cut out...
These reports can be supported by the only known photograph of some of
the chopped trees. While it can be argued that during that time other
people who visited the Kelly camp could have done the chopping, this is
unreasonable but not unlikely as the visitor on horse back would have
had to bring an axe with him in anticipation of recovering lead that the
Kellys had shot - and had recovered.
I believe from the Kelly gang story point of view, one single most important
photo of the time has to be the Burman photo of Stringybark Creek of 1878,
The second most important photo is of the Kelly camp taken by the Tolmie
work party (while Ewen Tolmie was still alive, he died in 1883 and the
Kelly camp photo was taken before then). Also within that photo are the
details a bullet holed bullock skull that had been slaughtered at the
site probably by the Kellys, and close by can be seen the ring of rocks
of an outdoor camp fireplace. Again undoubtedly used by the Kellys.
For those interested to get a close up look at that historic photo, please
go to my website www.denheldid.com/twohuts
Story 8 and 10.
22/09/03 Re: Max Brown
The death of Max Brown has
come as a shock to many of us. It is unfortunate that it sometimes takes
the death of a person to remind us just how great he or she truly was.
When my Grandfather passed away we found that he had left behind but one
Australian history book, An Australian Son. A well worn 1948 edition.
For me that spoke volumes about Max's work.
An Australian Son was not just another Kelly book. It was the work of
a brilliant pioneer, a man who did not seek fame or glory. A quiet achiever
you might say, in the world of Kellyana. There are a few authors today
who could learn from 'gentleman' Max. In my book he never received the
true credit he deserved, much of it has gone elsewhere, sad but true.
The current breed of writers owe Max a great deal of gratitude.
The good news here is that now many who had never heard of Max will seek
out a copy of his book and place it at the front of the line of Kelly
titles. Hopefully the text he was working on will be published for those
eager to learn the 'facts' about Ned. Of the many many books I have on
Ned, this one has always been my favourite. If I had to save but one from
a house fire, that would be the one.
Hopefully much much more will be written about Ned and the gang in years
to come, just don't ever expect another book like An Australian Son to
turn up. If you have a copy treasure it, if not try to find one.
21/09/03 Re: Max Brown
Max Brown was a Kelly legend
and his book Australian Son a classic!
So why hasn't Bailup got a review of his book in its book section?
Max Brown RIP Respectfully,
You are right that Australian Son
is a classic, and absolutely worth reviewing, but Bailup only concentrates
on Kelly books that are newly released. Ironoutlaw
has an excellent and comprehensive listing of older Kelly books for those
interested. Max is a favourite of Bailups and when his revised edition
of Australian Son is released it will definately be reviewed
21/09/03 Re: Richard Thorps
comments on Neds accent (5/09/03)
It is great to see someone
questioning this and not blindly following what they are being told. Richard
(and interested others) may like to take a look at The Great Debate
Here he will find arguments for and against to help him decide the accent
issue. I suggest starting at the bottom of the page and reading the comments
as they were added to the debate. Hopefully, more people will take an
interest in this subject and pass comment on it here on Your Say.
14/09/03 Re: Ned's accent
Hi, I have just seen a post
on your site about Ned's accent and thought I would add my thoughts.
My great grandmother, Mary Cain was born at Ryan's Creek near Benalla
in 1863 to Irish immigrant parents so grew up in the same time and place
as many of the Kelly clan. My father can remember her as an old woman
speaking with the same Australian accent that every other native born
person had. He recalls certain words may have had a slight Irish twang.
Of course her accent may have changed from the time she was a girl to
the time my father remembers her but it is interesting nonetheless. Both
my own grandparents were born in the Greta district and knew many of the
people involved in the Kelly story and never mentioned Irish accents in
the stories they told me. That doesn't prove anything conclusively of
course but those debating Ned's accent may find it food for thought. Please
keep up your good work!
Regards Matt Sumner
9/09/03 Re: John Sadleir
Thanks. I've just read your
reply and it was and excellent starting point for me to do further research.
Travis M. Sellers
5/09/03 Re: Ned Kelley film
i was hoping you could help with something that has been bugging me since
i saw the new ned kelley film trailer. Ned kelley speaks with an irish
accent, and yet i thought he was born in australia. i know his parents
or father at least were irsh, but this wouldnt grant him an irish accent
growing up in australia, would it?
Richard, you have just hit on one of the
most hotly debated topics in Kelly history. Yes, Ned was Australian born,
and both his parents were Irish, however what accent Ned actually spoke
with is a question that is open to debate, and it is a debate that has
divided many historians. What
accent Ned spoke with is undocumented.
There are a few articles in bailup's news section that cover both sides
you might wish to read (such as 22/03/03 'Begorrah,
Ned, or maybe g'day?'). Oral history tends to imply that he used an
Irish accent, however a number of researchers are currently looking into
early Australian linguistics, and argue that there was indeed an Australian
accent during Ned's lifetime - and that it is likely he had one. The decision
to use an Irish accent in films is probably mostly a commercial one. Sorry
there is not a more direct answer. (ps
there is only one 'e' in Kelly).
3/09/03 Re: John Sadleir
Hello - I'm currently reading
"Recollections of a Victorian Police Officer" by John Sadlier
who played a role in the Kelly story. Naturally, I would expect Sadlier's
account of his role in the capture of the Kelly Gang to be somewhat biased,
but to what extent, I can only ask.
What I'm hoping to achieve is to write a brief biopgraphical outline of
Sadlier's life for publication on my website on the history of Brighton
General Cemetery where Sadlier is interred - http://www.brightoncemetery.com
I would appreciate any thoughts on John Sadlier however extreme they might
be. For example, were his writings a truthful recollection? How is he
rated as a police officer and did he act honourably during the Kelly Gang
Travis M. Sellers
Superintendent John Sadlier
found by the Royal Commission Inquiry of 1881to have made "several
errors of judgment, his conduct of operations was not judicious or calculated"
and recommended that he be "placed at the bottom of the list of superintendents
and reduced in rank". The Reward Board granted him the 6th
largest share in the 8,000 pound reward for his part in the destruction
of the Kelly gang, (240 pounds, 17 shillings & threepence). Sadlier,
a man of his time, was actively involved in the Kelly hunt and appeared
to be a generally pragmatic and sensible police officer. He did however
make mistakes, but overall, did his job as well as he was able, considering
the environment he was working in. He considered the unlawful remand of
the Kelly sympathisers in 1879 as 'unwise'. He was also the policeman
who, after assessing the still potentially volatile situation, allowed
the bodies of Dan and Steve to be taken by their families (rather than
kept by the police for the coroner to autopsy). He also reputedly displayed
consideration toward Ned after his capture at Glenrowan. (nb The account
in his book was certainly a lot more accurate than Supt. Hare's efforts,
but it does give one a sense that he was trying to justify his behaviors
to his critics, rather than a simple account of what happened). It is
definately worth reading his responses to the Royal Commission's questioning
I've just finished reading
Marian Matta's excellent spot. it was *** brilliant...
...I'm obliged to recognise this lady!... It was absolutely fantastic
reading. pass on my regards...
in faith and trust
david cox (llama)
1/09/03 Re: The true Ned,
Was Ned or Dan hung? Did Dan
and Steve escape?
Burning question and I really want to know the answers. I have been reading,
sketching and fascinated with the Kelly Gang and the Glenrowan shoot out
for years. Have you anymore information on the DNA testing?
I tend to believe that Dan and Steve died at Glenrowan but there is always
that nagging doubt that just won't good away. I find your web site a wealth
of information but the more I read on this site in books and in documents
the more question I seem to have.
What are your researchers ideas on these matters PLEASE
I approach all topics by open-mindedly
researching all the questions that arise in Kelly mythology - but to only
rely on what can be proven (i.e. facts) for answers. All else is merely
The majority of Kelly researchers believe
that Dan and Steve died at Glenrowan because
there is absolutely no proof to suggest they did not. It has been
scientifically proven that Ned that was hanged
in November of 1880. Unfortunately, until such time as someone manages
to produce varifiable evidence to suggest that what historians currently
believe as fact is actually incorrect, all researchers must be left with
whatever 'nagging doubts' may arise. No results have yet been publicised
regarding the DNA tests on the body of Ryan in Ipswich .
23/08/03 Re: Matta
Please pass on to Marian that
I enjoyed her well researched and well written article on bailup. I look
forward to the next one,
regards Dave White.
18/08/03 Re: skull cap
Further to your reply re.
the skull cap, it's worth noting that SC Kelly who found it, full of blood
and with a pool of blood on the ground, actually wore it that night so
it couldn't have been too awful once the blood had been tipped out. The
story of Ned catching blood in it seems a bit odd to me. I think Ian Jones
described it that way in A Short Life. I assume Ned was using it to apply
pressure to his wounds rather than to catch blood.
I once used my limited medical knowledge to work out how much blood Ned
lost, based on his symptoms. I thought about 35-40% at least. Barely okay
if you're in a modern hospital with oxygen, plasma and blood transfusions,
but pretty desperate if you have been staggering around in a hundredweight
of armour for hours, are roughly handled and then given just the emergency
treatment Dr Nicholson could provide on the spot. And then to be plied
16/08/03 Re: Ned's helmet
Thanks very much for the contact
and the information about the helmet lining. I have to figure how the
leather strap and lining don't stick out the top of the helmet and if
our necks can stand the weight of the helm.
I'll drop you a line when I have had a go to let you know how it went
if you are interested.
11/08/03 Re: Kilmore Court
Hello, I saw your car at Kilmore
and was curious to see you website which looks very good. I haven't throughly
explored it but i thought you might be interested in a song my father
sang about Ned Kelly. I enjoyed hearing Justice Phillips speak it was
well worth the drive.
Thanks Danielle (btw That was D. White's
cruiser you saw at Kilmore).
a Ramshackle Hut
Anonymous. Sung by Frank Ahern often.
Kelly was born in a ramshackle hut,
He battled since he was a kid,
He grew up with duffers and bad men and thieves
And learned all the things that they did.
Ned Kelly would ride from the back-country hills,
He'd ride into town like a lord,
He'd steal all the squatters' fine horses, and then -
He would take them back for the reward.
At sixteen young Ned was a wild, reckless lad.
Helped hold up a coach without fear,
But he was arrested, remanded, and then,
They put him in gaol for a year.
he came out, he was bitter and hard,
Far worse than he ever had been,
He robbed and he plundered, became a wild boy,
The wildest Australia had seen.
He shot down the troopers who came on his track,
And laughed at the price on his head,
Ten thousand pounds for the whole of the gang,
And two thousand pounds just for Ned.
The bank at Jerilderie next took his eye,
This job brought him lots of renown,
He wasn't contented to stick up the bank,
But he held up the whole flaming town.
Down at Glenrowan they held up the pub,
They were having a drink and a song,
The troopers rode up and surrounded the place,
The Kellys had waited too long.
Ned came out shooting, a gun in each hand,
And wearing his armour of steel,
He was fifteen times wounded before he fell down,
Never more would he plunder and steal.
They took him to Melbourne, and nursed him to health,
The judge said, 'You're guilty!' to Ned,
A rope from a rafter, the sun in the east,
And the famous Ned Kelly was dead.
Some say he's a hero who gave to the poor,
While others 'A killer!' they say,
It just goes to show the old saying is true,
The saying that 'Crime does not pay'.
Yet when I look round at some people I know,
And the prices of things that I buy,
I say to myself, 'Well, perhaps after all,
Poor Ned wasn't such a bad guy'.
11/08/03 Re: Outlawed: The
real Ned Kelly
Outlawed: The real Ned Kelly, was a load of rubbish. What
started out well, explaining how the wealthy squatters mixed with the
likes of judges, politicians and high ranking police at the Melbourne
Club and the influences this mixture of wealth and importance had on the
Colony and policy making of the day, soon turned to a farce, mixed with
someone being murdered in cold blood and then the ranting of an ill informed,
ex history school teacher and freelance journalist (not an author as the
program would have us believe) by the name of Christopher Bantick. It
would appear that Mr. Bantick is an anti Australian and extreme left wing
radical, if his article Don't sacrifice the sanctity of Anzac Day,
is anything to go by. He bases part of the article on lies by journalist
about supposed drunken behaviour by young Aussies at Gallipoli. These
lies were exposed by Derryn Hink who was present at the time. If that
is the sort of research that Mr. Bantick relies on, combined with his
own twisted slant on our history, we can at least be thankful that he
is no longer teaching and influencing young impressionable minds. Then
you add a producer who is a Pom and look at the rubbish they dish up.
And of course, they cannot display Ned as an Aussie, they have to give
him that irritating Irish accent, trying to strip us of our national identity
5/08/03 Re: Ned Kelly in
I run a horse trail ride through
Mt Tamborine on the Gold Coast..I've heard some stories that Ned Kelly
and his gang rode through here and what ever...
can you confirm this or tell me where i can find out ?? it would make
a good story to tell when we are mosing on through the bushland on our
horses especially the Asian tourists...
Thanks for an help you can give me..
Unlikely in the extreme.
30/07/03 Re: Ned's armour
Hello again, I have another
question on the helmet lining which is in the photograph beside the section
on Dan and Steve's armour on your website. Does it still survive? I presume
not as no mention is made of it. Whose was it? There doesn't seem to be
enough blood on it to be Neds. Is it a tea cozy sewn up or was it specially
made for the armour? Has anyone got any ideas as to how it was made and
of what was it made? If it isn't Neds are there any records of what Ned
wore under his helm? I cant believe that he wore nothing under his helm
as the size is enormous and would wobble on his head.
Thanks in advance for your help.
As far as is known, yes that is Ned's helmet
lining in the photo. It is possible that Dan, Joe and Steve had liners
also, but if so, it is most likely that Dan and Steve's (and probably
Joe's) would have been burned when the police set fire to the Glenrowan
Inn, thus it is presumed that Ned's is the one in the photo. Small holes
in the top of Ned's helmet were made and straps tied between them, thus
the liner could take some of the weight of the helmet.
This item is not focused on much as info about it is generally hearsay,
the 'story' nonetheless is reasonably believable. The liner is supposed
to have been made by Ned's sister and was padded fabric like a small curved
quilt. After leaving the Glenrowan Inn during the seige, Ned apparenlty
took the liner and helmet off when he collapsed outside. It is said he
cradled his elbow in it and the blood dripped inside it like an absorbant
dish. He then was supposed to have discarded it when he woke (perhaps
bc it was so bloodied?) and leaving it with his rifle, he made his last
stand without it. If this story is correct then the blood would be mostly
on the inside of the liner and thus may not show up in the photograph,
which only shows one side of the outside of it. After the photo was taken
it was either destroyed by the police, or taken as a souvenir by someone
29/07/03 Re: New Stories
I thought you and your readers
would be interested in my latest findings. Re, Kellys Creek. We are all
familiar with the photo of the hut at Kellys Creek.
I have discovered the picture is printed back to front, but not only that,
it may not have been where it was supposed to have been, ( where a sawmill
was built at Kellys Creek in 1930's ).
To prove this we need the help of a Kelly Sympathizer- field surveyor
to conduct a check survey at the creek to prove my theory. Also, I have
discovered the only picture of the Kelly tree at Kellys Creek when it
was still standing. This unique picture is a first. The Kellys used that
tree as the main target for shooting practice. It is all explained at
the following website for all to see. http://denheldid.com/twohuts/bullets.html#story9
Also at this website , Story
10 is about the EK gun.
It was found in a mine shaft at Beechworth in 1940 together with three
other guns that could have been part of an armoury of Kelly sympathizers.
When the uprisings failed, a gun with EK stamped on it may well have become
a liability to the owner. The other guns were very old fashioned cap locks
common of the type during that time. Picture attached.
Please go to the website link
above to get the full story. Anyone with knowledge of similar stories
about guns/rifles please contact me firstname.lastname@example.org
From, Bill Denheld
28/07/03 Re: Neds armour
Thanks for getting back in
touch so quickly. I have sent an email to the state library and am still
waiting for a reply. Did you see there computer simulation of Neds armour?
They have a still of
it on there web page. In there exhibition you are supposed to be able
to move all around the armour and even look inside. How good are the replicas
of Neds armour? I have seen a still from the new movie and cant really
tell who's armour it was supposed to be.
I work at the Royal Armouries museum in Britain. The Royal Armouries
is the National Museum of Arms and Armour and was originally in the Tower
of London. We opened a new museum in 1996 in Leeds, which has a dept on
interpreters who's job is to bring the collection to life. This ranges
from medieval jousting to soldiers experiences in Bosnia.
We have planned for September an event based around "Outlaws".
One of the interpretations we will be performing is on Ned Kelly. As such
I have to make a copy of his armour. Is there anywhere that has photographs
of his armour from all angles and dimensions and weights?
I have found your web site very useful and also the state library of Victoria
has some dimensions and information but only front on photographs.
Any help or ideas of where I can find this information will be appreciated.
Also what test were the police carriying out and have they any results
As Ned's armour is held by the State Library
of Victoria you would be best to contact them directly and ask for the
details you need, someone should be able to help. (They do have a feedback
address on there site that would be worth a try. ) Failing that, there
is a man who makes replicas of Ned's armour and so will have its dimensions.
Good luck with your quest.
As yet, there have been no further results published on the tests being
22/07/03 Re: Black Snake:
The Daring of Ned Kelly: available in U.S?
Thank you very much for your help!
best wishes, Kathryn Kaufmann
17/07/03 Re: Black Snake:
The Daring of Ned Kelly: available in U.S?
Is Black Snake: The Daring
of Ned Kelly available for purchase in the United States? Is it possible
to mail order it directly from your website and have it shipped to the
I'd love to get it for my nephew.
is an information site only and so do not sell any products, however if
you contact the publisher they should be able to direct you in how to
get a copy. Publisher: Black Dog Website: www.bdb.com.au 15 Gertrude Street,
Fitzroy Vic 3065, Australia Ph: (03) 9419 9406, Fax: (03) 9419 1214
If you were one of the friends
of the most sought after fugitive of your time, the last thing you would
do is write down a diary of your relationship with this outlaw. Hence,
no written texts.
You also wouldn't carve your initials into any product you made for Ned.
GGrandson of Friedrich Kuchel
Related News article
19/06/03 Re: Aaron Sherritt
I've been commissioned by
the family of Aaron Sherritt's Grandniece to do their family history.
I've had difficulty in getting much - what little I've found has been
helpful, but not a lot to show for the fact that the Sherritt's played
a role in the Kelly saga.
The irony for me is that another contact of mine claims to be connected
to Ellen Kelly nee Quinn............so I've been doing a lot of reading
in the past six months trying to work out the true story of this claim........still
waiting for her to get back to me at the moment on that one.
As you can see from below, I was refered to you by Denise from Brisbane.
I'm on the Sunshine Coast in Qld and am unable to visit the Beechworth
Area in person at the present time to do some indepth research. But I'm
hoping that there are some people out there with information, so that
I don't have to reinvent the wheel - so to speak.
I look forward to hearing from you.
18/06/03 Re: Baileys Vineyard
Have been thinking more about
Ned working at Baileys Vineyards and that this was the place he supposedly
developed a taste for 'claret'. I am a winemaker with the company that
now owns Baileys. In Ned Kelly - A Short Life, it states that Ned's Last
Supper consisted of, among other things, a bottle of claret. Is there
any information to suggest that his last drop, so to speak, was a wine
from Baileys?? Or is there any information about the origin of this bottle
Cheers, from a very curious,
You have set yourself a tricky task in
finding an answer to that one! It is very unlikely that there will be
any record of what vineyard any claret Ned may have drunk actually came
from, but you could try nevertheless. Note Jones claims his source is
"Ashmead page 29 (a detail undoubtedly gleaned from Ellen Kelly...)".
It is perhaps possible that the Melb Gaol purchased all its food and drink
at that time from registered suppliers and kept records, but as other
Gaol records have not survived it is a long shot. (Try contacting the
National Trust.) Have you researched how many vineyards at the time had
claret available? Because that could narrow your search a little, although
it is likely that you will only ever be able to claim a certain 'probability'
it was Baileys - rather than a fact. Good luck with your search Cindy.
16/06/03 Re: Ned Kelly Advert?
I am researching how Ned Kelly
has been satirised/mimicked in the media over the past ten years or so.
I recently read in Graham Seal's "The Outlaw Legend" that Ned
Kelly was used in an advert by Challenge Bank in Australia (now Westpac
I think) in or around 1991. I have been unable to find any reference to
this at all and am eager to find out more. Are you aware of any such advert?
Do you know of any other advert in which Ned Kelly is used? I also read
somewhere that calls were being made for Kelly to be immortalised in a
bank note. Do you know anything about this?
Any other points of interest/guidance will be gratefully received!
There is a "Can't tear em" work
clothes radio advert around at the moment (presented as a poem) about
the Kelly gang.
15/06/03 Re: Link request
I have visited your site many
times and love how it is so current. I have provided a link to your web
site on my links page as I am sure that visitors to my site will find
your site fascinating. I would appreciate if you could add a reciprocal
link to our web site to www.nedkellyart.com.au
I am sure your visitors would be very interested in our art exhibition
The Lives of the Kelly Gang by artist Barry Walsh.
Barry immersed himself in the history of the gang for 2 years which resulted
in a collection of 25 artworks which has toured parts of Australia (especially
Victoria) for years before finally being offered for sale now.
I noticed, when visiting your site that you have a section devoted to
links to the art of Ned Kelly. I have provided an image of the collection's
centre-piece artwork. This painting is 5 metres long and the armour is
painted larger than life! It is certainly an inspiring piece of work.
I'd love to hear what you think of Barry's work. The collection is being
offered to collectors and Ned Kelly enthusiasts world wide though we would
love to be able to keep the collection within Australia if we can.
Log on to Original Australian Art
10/06/03 Re: Surname: Correct
spelling Scanlan or Scanlon ?
There appears to be a bit
of confusion about the spelling of the surname of Mounted Constable Michael
Scanlan (Scanlon) Stringybark Creek 26-10-1878
Six (6) examples of surname spelt Scanlan.
(1) Victoria Police - Record of Conduct and Service Sheet.
(2) Petty Sessions Mansfield November 1874.
(3) Gravestone Mansfield Cemetery.
(4) Troopers/Police Monument Mansfield, erected 1880 at the junction
of High and Highett Streets.
(5) Royal Commission 1881.
(6) J.J.Keneally publication 1929.
Although the surname is spelt Scanlan in these instances, many authors
including noted historians appear to favour spelling the surname Scanlon.
Can anyone offer an explanation? Comments welcome.
Sheila Hutchinson email email@example.com
6/06/03 Re: Gang's chest
In response to Sam Bennett's
query re: the Gang's chest, it wasn't actually the Gang's chest as such.
We have been told by the owner that it actually belonged to Steve Hart
(as we only very recently found out), and the contents of the chest apparently
were split between two descendants.
The chest does indeed exist. It is actually in Melbourne. The main aim
of finding the chest (which, in reality is actually more like a small
trunk or box) was to see if the photo of Ned, Joe and Tom Lloyd at the
Wangaratta races actually exists. We still believe it does. We actually
had a Lloyd descendant at our exhibition
a couple of months ago claiming they had seen the photo and had it in
their hand as a child.
So, the chest/trunk does indeed exist - and the contents are in the hands
of a third party. If we find out more, we'll certainly let you know. Here's
Cheers and best wishes,
6/06/03 Re: Ned stories
It is good to see so many
people researching Ned and the gang now (even if some of them are actually
seriously wondering if some of the more stupid stories could be true)
but any research is good as far as i am concerned no matter where the
researcher starts. The more people interested the more the field is open
to all, then no one gets to dominate the stage and so we end up closer
to true history - not one version of it. I guess stories about Dan and
Ned swapping identities, and Steve being a cross-dresser, etc are no different
to stories about celebrities now in trashy mags - people like to claim
all sorts of things that aren't true about famous people. But when it
comes down to it - any story that can't be proven is just a story. People
forget that fact. Even some of the stories that might be true (like the
Republic of the north east) are still just stories until there is proof!
It all just goes to show that people will believe whatever they want to
believe. Experience has taught me not to believe anything without some
sort of evidence to back it up. The only drawback to the ametuer historian
publishing freeforall is that some 'historians' and writers don't think
they need to give us real proof and that their opinion is good enough.
But no it isn't.
I finally got to see what
all the outrage was about and believe it or not I really enjoyed Ned Kelly
with Heath Ledger. Yeah, I know it wasn't factual, but i think it is a
top flick anyway.
Any news about the release of all the doumentaries currently being made?
p.s. And what ever happened to the secret chest with all the gangs personal
effects in it?
The Besieged doco is very soon to be released,
there is a cast and crew screening at Glenrowan on the 27th June. Still
no news of the 'treasure chest' has reached me.
31/05/03 Re: Theories Police
camp site at Stringybark!! Trevor Harbord.
area rising up behind the figure with the raised arm is on the other side
of the creek. The lens used by Burman was probably a 4 inch telescopic
that drew everything in close. Just behind the Kelly tree ( near the figure)
is the creek - the ground drops away here but it looks like continuous
ground to where it rises up. As Trevor says, it looks like only 10 metres
away, yet it is more than 50 metres away ( with the creek and swamp in
between that you can't see in this photo). This has been a problem for
Kelly historians for years. One day a bush fire will go through here and
all will be revealed no doubt. A good illustration of the area can be
seen in my story 2 http://denheldid.com/twohuts/story.html#Story2
See the overall plan sketch
of the Stringybark Ck site where the drawn contours show how the slope
rises up just behind the huts. It was this very slope that lead to my
discovery confirming the location of the police camp site.
Bill Denheld. firstname.lastname@example.org
30/05/03 Re: Black Snake
This is just a note to let
you know that my book for kids on Ned, Black
Snake: the daring of Ned Kelly, has been shortlisted for a Children's
Book of the Year Award (the Eve Pownall Award for Information Books).
Needless to say I am thrilled by this. The awards will be announced in
Carole Wilkinson n
Well deserved. The best of luck Carole!
29/05/03 Re: Ned's name
I was searching your site,
and i was wondering if you could help me with something that has been
hurting my head for a while. What is ned short for? I thought it could
be edmund, its just to settle an argument between friends, so it would
be great if you could let me know if it is short for any particular name.
Wes, if after having searched this site
you still believe Ned is short for Edmund - then why do you think everyone,
including this site, refers to him as Edward? (No wonder your head is
29/05/03 Re: Dan Kelly was
Dan seems to be taking on
a mystical quality doesn't he!?! Somehow he escaped Glenrowan and lived
to a ripe old age in Queensland - at the same time he was mistaken for
Ned, captured and executed in 1880. Dan was dead and alive and able to
be Ned all at the same time. I wonder where he will turn up next? (Maybe
in one of the Harry Potter books.) Come to think of it, if Ned wasn't
hung, then where did he end up? Ned seemed to have been inlove with and,
or married quite a lot of women too didn't he? I thought Joe was supposed
to be the ladies man. Oh, and now we are told that Ned's best and most
trusted friend Joe was actually a bastard (I wonder what Ned would say
to that) and that Aaron was really the good guy. Is that why the gang
shot him? Poor old neglected Steve, although he apparently escaped the
seige to freedom - nobody seems to care what happened to him after that!
Can anyone tell me who the two dead lads were in the Inn if they weren't
Dan and Steve?
What is going on? For God's sake everyone, the story is interesting enough
without having to make up all this extra fantasy, let alone believing
any of it.
Regards, Peter Rules
p.s. Top web site. Best bit is the outlaws section.
I have always wondered if the gang were still outlaws at Glenrowan and
no historian was sure - but now we all know they weren't! Keep up the
good work Bailup sleuths.
For answers on whether Dan was hanged or not click HERE,
or if maybe if he escaped - click HERE
28/05/03 Re: research
My name is Rebecca and I am
studying history at Melbourne University.
I am currently doing research on the Kelly image throughout the past 103
years and the myths surrounding the Kelly legend, in particular Dan Kelly's
escape, Steve Hart's cross-dressing and those who claim to be direct descendants
of Ned's, despite him not offically being known to have any children of
I was wondering if you could help me with any information on these particular
tales. Specifically I would love as much information on Steve Hart as
possible, as a find this tale absouletly amusing and deliteful.
The discussions on this site are fantastic!
Since the Kelly Outbreak many and varied
'myths' have immerged, (such as the one's you have mentioned) and been
offered convincingly until some have even been widely believed as fact.
This phenomenon actually started back in 1878 when the untrue theory that
Ned had cut off Sgt. Kennedy's ears was first publicised, and such myths
have not stopped coming since. There has been a recent increase of them,
no doubt due to the increased interest in the Kelly story generally. Ned's
bravery, the gangs' stylish bank robberies, and the fact the gang members
wore homemade armour - makes their story unique. People are fascinated
by the Kelly story for its complexity, and thus like to imagine there
is more to it. Various escape and 'cross-dressing' stories are therefore
fabricated and eventually start to become folk-law. Some people take them
very seriously. It is important to study these stories as part of the
Kelly image, but while doing so, it is equally important to recognise
them as fable. When approaching such theories it is best to treat them
as fiction unless they are supported by clear and verifiable fact.
26/05/03 Re: Ned's escape
thanks for your reply, and
yes it has shed some light on the subject. i was also wondering as to
what your views were on the movie 'Ned Kelly', with Heath Ledger. what
did you think about the siege of Glenrowan scene, where the Kelly's were
massacring the police. i think that the
writers of the movie were mainly going for action more than anything else.
You are right Dylan, the amount of police
shot in the siege scene was definately for effect rather than authenticity,
but remember, the movie was by no means historically accurate. After all,
this is a film that had the gang drinking horse blood, and lions and camels
at the seige of Glenrowan! For a review of the screenplay which does address
some of the issue that arise when fiction is woven into historical fact
for the sake of art - click HERE. (For anyone
wondering which of the main elements in the movie are fact and which are
fiction - click HERE.)
22/05/03 Re: Theories Police
camp site at Stringybark!!
Just writing in giving my 20 cents worth regarding Bill Denhelds theory
on the Police camp site.
I read Bills two huts article with great interest and the effort he has
gone to is plain for all to see.
I have read and re-read his findings several times and have visited Stringybark
creek twice in the last couple of months. As much as I would like to be,
I am still not convinced the spot Bill has pinpointed is THE spot of the
police killings for 2 reasons.
1 )In one of the photographer Burman Photos of the murder site, a distinct
sharp rise appears to the right no more than 10 metres or so from where
the figure with the raised hand stands.
When standing at the suggested site of burmans tripod ( as per Bill Denhelds
Instructions) no distinct rise is seen in close proximity to the spot/looking
in the supposed direction of the camera.
There is only a gradual rise on the far side of Stringybark creek road.
When I have mentioned this to several possible authorities on the subject
they always state mining has gone on that is why the rise isnt there.
I find this theory a bit hard to swallow/The mining done in those days
would have been manual labour, there are miners holes here and there,
but would a rise as in the picture possibly be levelled only by modern
machinery. There is no area in the current possible police camp site that
remotely suggests a rise once existed in the area, there would have to
be some trace of this rise today if this was the spot, I am sure last
century no earth moving graders had been invented. I understand cameras
from the last century had their limitations but the rise is plain to see
and extremely close to the police camp site. The theory of the two huts
fireplaces would prove that this may be the police camp site, only if
we knew without a doubt that no other huts/dwellings had ever been constructed
in the area and I am sure this is not the case.
I found no area that resembles the police camp, but will continue my hunt.
Also on another topic.
I read in an internet link from the Sydney morning Herald that has Kelly
related stories that a couple of years ago southebys had auctioned around
100 Kelly family photos that had apparently belonged once to Ellen Kelly.
Will the public ever get to see these? One would think with the shortage
of photos of the Kelly gang and relatives these would be made available
to A kelly authority writing a book for the right price. Is there anything
in the pipeline by way of newly discovered Kelly photos???? Does anyone
Anyway will pipe down for now.
Regards Trevor Harbord.
ps replies please if any to email@example.com
21/05/03 Re: Dan and Steve
escaped Glenrowen seige theory
I watched with some humour
and amazement at Councilor Tully's (Ipswich City Council) on Channel 7's
Sunrise program yet again regurgitating the farcical theory that Dan and
Steve somehow escaped the fire at the Glenrowen Inn the night of the siege
and fled to Queensland..I would like to ask Councilor Tully was this to
coincide with the release of the new movie or sheer coincidence?. We have
been hearing this theory for over 70 years!!!!!..also I would like to
know who erected the mock Armour of the gang in honour of this "conman"
who claims to be Dan buried in an Ipswich cemetery without verifying THE
TRUTH?....and who paid for it?
Most of us are sick to death of these so called and self proclaimed experts
running this story every couple of years to boost their own hidden agendas.
Over many years our Relatives graves have been desecrated by some who
have jumped to such conclusions which I find totally disgusting and immoral.
I just wish these people would just accept what happened that night or
stop peddling their theories without backing it up with PROOF.
Steve Hart's Great Great Nephew
18/05/03 Re: Ned Kelly
As a genealogist, I hear alot of stories that come to fruition when many
people tell the same story. From
what I have heard, and seen on the movie of Ned Kelly (starring John Jarrett)
; Ned worked for a blacksmith when he was in his late teens early 20s.
The blacksmith taught him to read during Ned's lunch breaks as he took
pity on the lad. Ned wanted to learn how to read so he could read poetry
to a girl he was keen on - her name was Violet. In NSW there is an Edward
Kelly marrying a woman called Violet. I have details on data base but
haven't had time t check dates. Ned had also learnt to write beautifully
fluent letters. However, I have a copy of a letter that someone gave me
years ago and it was the time Ned was in jail. From the letter it shows
that the alleged person it was from - Ned; could not read or write but
had to get a warden to write the letter to send to his sister re his mother
and to get him some clothes. He signed his name as X underneath.
From other researchers on the Reardon line, and other bits and pieces
I have picked up - Dan allegedly said to his brother during the seige
"Ned you are an educated man, you can read and write and you are
a gentleman; you have never hurt anyone unless in self defence."
Dan told Ned to escape because he was a rogue (Dan) and had willingly
killed for the sake of it and his life would never amount to anything.
He apparently crushed up cold soot from the fire and darkened his hair
and beard, put the armour suit on and went out with guns blazing. Ned
allegedly went through the floor boards and out the back. Dan hung on
the gallows and Ned escaped to where ever.
It's very interesting and I believe provable if alot of people took the
time to search the facts.
Movies and hearsay do not evidence make!
In fact, it was Ned Kelly that was hanged in 1880 and not Dan. For supportive
evidence link to 'History in dispute - Was
18/050/3 Re: Ned
thankyou so much for helping
me, i have found both books and am able to access them
15/05/03 Re: Ned
my name is Eveline, i am currently in Year 12 and doing my History Extension
assignment on Ned Kelly, the question is:
How did Edward Kelly, the son of an irish catholic convict, an outlaw
himself, become a hero of the Australian Culture.
i was hoping that you may be able to send me as much information as possible
that addresses this question, as all i seem to find is information that
contricts each other. i would really appreicate if you could. it would
Your topic is an interesting one, but unfortunately
there is not a simple answer to it. The answer to that particular question
may lie, not so much in what Ned did, but in what was going on in Australia
at the time. For a good analysis that may point you in the right direction
- try reading Dr. Graham Seal's book 'Tell em i died game, the legend
of Ned Kelly'. (Info on the book can be found here).
For a great historical analysis that should help, read Dr John McQuilton's
'The Kelly Outbreak' (which may be a bit tricky to find but will be well
worth your reading). Good luck with your assignment.
My name is Dean Mayes and I am a a descendant of Joseph Mayes who was
a Constable then Sergeant in the Victorian Police Force and who served
under Superindendant Frances Hare during the hunt for the Kelly Gang.
He was a member of the Cave Party who hunted throughout Victoria for the
Kelly Gang and was a prominent witness in the Royal Commision into the
Victorian Police Force which took place in 1881 and 1882 (he gave evidence
in May 1882).
I am seeking to get in touch with people who may help me find information
concerning my great great grandfather or people who may be descendants
of Victorian Police Troopers who served with my great great grandfather.
I have enclosed photographs of Joseph Mayes.
I would appreciate any assistance you can give.
Joseph Mayes is standing forth from left.
11/05/03 Re: The Ned Kelly
hi my name is emma burrowes
and i am doing an assignment on the Movie Ned Kelly. We have to write
about what is true in the movie and what is fiction. Another question:
What is the go with the scenery all the birds and plants? also i would
like to no why they didn't put the hanging of ned in the movie. if you
have some information on the movie and some reports from the directer
it would be greatly appreciated if you could send it to (email
We have covered the main points of the
movie that are fiction, much of the rest (i.e. the parts we didn't mention)
are true. It is a very complicated and involved history and therefore
not easy to rattle off the truths vrs fiction. For a quick run down however
- link here (However, the main parts of fiction
are: There was no such character as Julia Cook - we actually cannot even
be sure if Ned even had a girlfriend or not (no clear evidence), Joe did
not actually wear a dress when he shot Aaron, the gang did not drink horses
blood and were not starved by the police, and there was definately no
circus at Glenrowan!) Not sure what birds and plants you are refering
to? Perhaps they were simply there to show it was country victoria!?!
Sounds like you need to browse the official movie site, which may answer
the rest of your questions. (Apparently the director did not want to show
the trial and hanging as that was really the most depressing part of Ned's
life and he didn't want to end it on such a low note, so he stuck with
the legendary part - but don't quote this.)
9/05/03 Re: (email below)
i was hoping for info on each
member of the gang, and the glenrowan siege. thanks for your help.
Sorry Andrew, still not specific enough.
The information you are after is extensive and complicated. But you could
start in my Quick History section.
i am a year 12 student at
mooroopna secondary college and i require information in light of the
history of the indavidual kelly gang members. please help me.
What kind of information? You will have
to be much more specific if you want help.
5/05/03 Re: Ned's escape
Hello, my name is Dylan Howell,
and i am in year 9, attending De La Salle college Malvern, Australia.
on Friday last week (2/5/03) we attended the movie 'Ned Kelly'. it was
a very exiting movie, but quite innacurate, as you would know (if you
have seen it). For instance. The siege
at Glenrowan in the movie was portrayed as the Kell's coming out, and
massacring the police, when in actual fact, only one policeman was injured
at the siege.
Anyway, that isn't what I wrote to you about. I was wondering if you had
heard the conspiracy theory, that in actual fact, Ned Kelly got away,
and that Dan took his place in the noose instead? that is said to be the
reason why Ellen Kelly (Ned's mum) said 'Die like a Kelly'.
I am deeply sorry that i could not write you a better written, more correctly
punctuated e-mail, but it is presently 10:11pm on a school night. Would
you mind writing back to me, and sharing your view on the issue in question?
Ned Kelly was hanged and not Dan. For supportive evidence, along with
further examination of Ellen's comments, link to 'History in dispute -
Was Dan Hanged?'
3/05/03 re: conspricy
look at the resemblence the
picture from bail up days befor ned was hanged and a picture of dan when
he was young look at ned in the 2nd pic of yours with raised eyebrows
It is unclear what the "conspricy"
(conspiracy?) here is, or what the significance of the perceived similarities
in the photos are, but it seems to be that Dan-neah suspects that the
1880 photo of Ned looks more like a photo of Dan, than it does the Pentridge
(?) photo of Ned, implying perhaps that possibly there was a switch made?
This myth has surfaced before, and been dispelled. Dan died at Glenrowan
in June of 1880, and Ned was hanged in Melbourne 5 months later. Ned's
various likenesses haves been tested and matched by experts, so it is
not possible that Dan and Ned switched identities. Ned and Dan were brothers.
If there is a resemblance, it is because they came from the same genetic
background, sharing both parents. It is certainly not uncommon for family
members to have similar facial features.
to 'History in dispute - Was Dan Hanged?'
1/05/03 Re: 1993 Ned Kelly:
Man & Myth Revisited
Back in November 1993, the
CAE held one of its fabulous symposiums on Ned. In a moment of madness,
I volunteered to transcribe the tapes and copies were sent to the participants.
However, one tape, Professor Weston Bate's "Local, Regional, National
and International Strands In The Kelly Drama" had gone missing. This
was a great pity as it was a great scene-setting talk - there's far more
to the Kelly story than first meets the eye! It's a long shot, but did
anyone happen to make their own tape copy or even know what happened to
the original? If so, I'd love to hear from them.Anyone who'd like a copy
of the other transcribed tapes can contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org.
They were well worth reading.Best wishesMarian Matta
28/04/03 Re: Ned Kelly Speak
I'm unsure if you can assist
but I'll ask anyway. Is there any evidence, either oral or written, from
contemporaries of Ned that Ned spoke with an Irish accent? Did General
Monash or others who met him ever mention anything about his way of speaking
etc.. I would imagine that, if he did, it would be very slight and would
possibly be a hangover from his early childhood.
Any assistance or pointing me in the right direction for further enquiries
would be appreciated.
This is seemingly a touchy subject for
many people and one that has not as yet been resolved to the satisfaction
of all. There is some oral history evidence that suggests that Ned did
speak with an Irish accent, though not specifically how heavy. However,
recent debate has seen linguistics experts strongly dispute this, sighting
evidence that an Australian accent was well and truly established by Ned's
lifetime. An excellent article that puts forth both sides of the story
can be found here, also some months ago
there was a heated debate in the feedback section of ironoutlaw
that is worth reviewing.
27/04/03 Re: Last Stand
Is there any record of the
number of people who were killed/injured at the Last Stand?
Bridget Reardon's head grazed by bullet,
Michael Reardon shot, Jack Jones killed (died in hospital soon after the
seige), Martin Cherry killed, George Metcalf wounded in eye and died a
few months later, Jane Jones died much later (1882) allegedly from injuries
Joe Byrne, Dan Kelly and Steve Hart all die. Ned Kelly was wounded.
Insp. Hare wounded in wrist. One of the blacktrackers was also wounded
(but not severely).
Hello. My name is Jamie Langley
from South Morang. I am writing this to show you a photo you may have
seen before.. It is a pic of the Kelly lookout over the Woolshed vally
below that is clouded over. I am a coach driver from Victoria who has
shared the kelly story with thousands of people from all over the world.
My family found this site after a bit of local knoledge as in park rangers
and decinded to take the plunge with my new digital camera...Anyway, it
is a good pic of where the gang from time to time looked down from...in
future I will produce pics of the Kelly cave if you don`t have them. I
have seen them from a distance but with a 3yr old at my side,,,,well you
know.................Look forward to a response
22/04/03 Re: Could you help
Hi my name is Karen and I
am doing an essay about Ned Kelly for my English Tafe course and one of
the questions is What was the Jerilderie Letter? I have an idea but are
you able to give me the exact answer to the question it would help me
a lot because in the books and web sites I have looked at, thay are unclear
as to what the letter was and who it was for.
Thank-you so much
This is a complex question and your essay
could examine the topic more closely, however the following is a brief
analysis for you to start from. In determining what the 'Jerilderie letter'
was, or what its ultimate purpose was, one must first look at why it was
written. The original handwritten copy was written by Joe Byrne, Ned Kelly's
words were recorded - no doubt with Joe's, and possibly others, interjections
and suggestions. We know it was written with the goal of having it published,
presumably in multiple, unfortunately its publication was prevented when
it was given to the police, so we are not entirely sure how it would have
been used in viable terms. Most Kelly researchers however, believe the
intention of the document was for publication and distribution to newspapers
and the general populace of Victoria. Publishing and distributing such
a document was the only means available to the gang of countering the
claims made against them by the police and press.
It was a long document containing Ned's personal history and seemly written
essentially as an exercise in public relations, as well as, a method of
threatening the authorities in the form of a manifesto. In it Ned attempted
to explain and justify his actions through a personal history, apparently
to effect a change in the general publics perception of him and the Kelly
gang and answer his critics. It outlines his version of the troubles he
had with the police, including details of the incidents that led to, and
made, the Kelly gang outlaws. It also contained warnings to the authorities
and threats of Ned's intended actions if certain perceived injustices
weren't rectified, along with motives, which are explained in a list of
grievances against Ned and his family, in an attempt to justify the Kelly
gangs past, present, and future actions.
14/04/03 Re: Ned Kellys Armour.
I'm fascinated by Ned Kellys
Do you have or can you give me details on were to find out the measurements
of Ned Kellys armour?
It would much appreciated if you can help.
Regards, Paul Karlson
As far as we are aware the measurements
are not recorded publicly, but must be available as many replicas are
being produced. Your best bet is to contact the State Library of Victoria
where Ned's armour is held (and is on display until May 25th).
14/03/03 Re: Information
I was told by a cousin of mine in NSW that the News there last week first
week in April covered a story about the recent Bushfires in NE Victoria
and how during the later stages of the clean up they came across a tunnel
leading from Aaron Sherrits house. I never saw the report and was hoping
that someone an fill me on this story and its validity
Thanks Roz Hamilton
10/04/03 Re: Last Outlaw
There is a copy of the production
booklet that accompanied the series "The Last Outlaw" for sale
10/04/03 Re: Ned of course
Karina raises an interesting
question (below) and one not often asked. So, how accurate is the Last
Outlaw miniseries? That is a more complex and difficult question than
it would seem at first glance. The reason for the difficulty is that both
the mini series and our most well known book on Ned are written by the
same person. The series is, in a way, an extension of the book 'A Short
Life' by Ian Jones. The same story telling methods were employed in both
and I loved both. The question, however, is one of accuracy and I feel
it must be noted that if one simply compares historical details to Ian's
work alone they will see the series as perfectly accurate. Yet every author's
opinion can be seen in their own work, and Ian is not an exception. In
his generally historically accurate work Ian, as we know, also uses a
lot of unsubstantiated oral history, and in fact some of it was gained
from people with little connection to the figures in the story. Of course
Ian was not alone in writing the series and others would have had influence
(possibly even about things Ian did not agree with), but to me, his influence
stands out. For example Tom Lloyd's position in the story agrees with
Ian's but not necessarily everyones. Ian says he was the 5th member of
the gang, and he may have been - we don't know, but it is interesting
that recently at the exhibition at the State library they called Kate
Kelly the 5th member. It is very likely that a combination of people assisted
the gang's survival in a vital way - not simply the focus being on one
person. In other words, different historians believe different "facts",
and yet many aspects of the mini-series can be viewed the same light as
Ian's book. Another example would be the treatment of Aaron as traitor,
and of Ward's 'setting up' of Aaron, this is Ian's analysis. Ned's 'romance'
with Kate Lloyd, which was denied by both Kate's daughter and Jim Kelly,
is only suggested in Ian's work. So, such things in the series clearly
have Ian's influence, but are not necessarily substantiated historically.
In regards to general historical accuracy little things do appear, like
how I have since learned that Anton was in fact quite petrified - but
in the series is portrayed as somewhat of a dumb bunny. The way the Glenrowan
issue was shown is interesting: The fact that the derailment of the train
was meant to kill the police, and the fact that Ned was willing to kill
anyone on board indiscriminately - was skimmed over in the series, downplaying
the negative aspects of Ned's thinking. The often called 'Declaration
of the Republic' document and related uprising is treated as 'fact' -
when historically speaking it is nothing of the sort. We are still waiting
for evidence to support it to surface.
We all love how Ian tells the story, but so far no one seems capable of
making a completely accurate Kelly film, so The Last Outlaw does stand
out as the best historically. I would love to see a more balanced film,
but I do not see that ever happening, perhaps the only way this can occur
would be in a documentary.
I agree with Karina's comments about how Australian kids learn more in
school about American history than their own. It would be nice if this
was rectified, the problem being, just look at how many versions of the
Kelly story there are - which one should be taught at school?
9/04/03 Re: Ned of course
Love the website. I lived
in Melbourne back in 1980 and remembered the centenery celebrations very
well. I recently viewed the mini series The Last Outlaw again after 20
odd years and it was great to see. I haven't seen the new Heath Ledger
movie as I have a feeling it was probably made more for the American market
but I may see it further down the track.
My question to you is how historicaly accurate do you consider The Last
Outlaw to be, I personally think it is a brilliant piece of T.V. but accurate
I have signed your petition for channel 7 to release it and I will write
them a letter shortly pushing my arguements as this is along with the
Eureka Stockade one of the most important periods in Australlian history
that is mainly overlooked in the classrooms these days.
It is a shame that Aussie kids seem to know more about American history
than important events in our own.
Sorry for my rantings and ravings but it was good to get things off my
Tweed Heads South NSW
No need to apologise for "ranting "- as
that is what feedback sections are for. The Outlaw mini-series is certainly
the most accurate drama produced to date. But as with any drama, some
unsubstantiated aspects of history were obviously included, but on the
whole it is historically based. If you are looking for historical accuracy,
there are a number of documentaries being produced at present, which hopefully
will distinguish between fact and folklaw. I
you signed the petition to release the series (assuming you mean the one
6/04/03 Re: Dan Kelly
I'm in year eleven and I'm
doing a project for school on the Kelly gang, particularly on the rumour
surrounding the alleged deaths of Dan Kelly and Steve Hart.
I've read the articles on your website, and I would like to be able to
give a conclusion to the story. Do you have any idea whether the body
of Mr Ryan or any of the other mentioned bodies awaiting DNA findings
are in fact, one of the Kelly men, or Hart?
I'd greatly appreciate your reply.
Two bodies burnt beyond recognition were
found in the ruins of the Glenrowan Inn in June 1880, and were identified
(by the methods available at the time) as Dan Kelly and Steve Hart. They
were buried and mourned. It was well before the days of DNA testing, however
all other evidence gathered to date suggest that the bodies found were
that of Dan and Steve, and none has been produced that disproves it. Contemporary
witnesses suggest that Steve and Dan were the only two people involved
in the siege that were unaccounted for, and no other people were missing.
The authorities confirmed their deaths, as did their relatives. Therefore
it is somewhat imprecise to use the term "alleged deaths" -
it would be more accurate to say 'alleged survival'.
or Steve surviving Glenrowan is part of the mythology of the Kelly legend.
To date, no scientific tests, or positive DNA findings, have been announced,
and no verified historical evidence exists that proves they survived.
It is therefore only unverified claims, and hearsay that suggests it is
theoretically possible they could have survived.
There have been numerous men over the years since who have 'claimed' to
be Dan or Steve, but none have offered proof, instead offering only unsubstantiated
tales and stories or hearsay (which would not stand up in a court of law
as proof positive, and thus cannot be treated as factually correct). The
most notable flaw in all these men's 'claims' (apart from the fact that
there is more than one) has been that none of them ever sought to make
contact with any family member (Kelly or Hart) who could have positively
identified them, or alternately, contradicted their claims. This reluctance
indicating that they were not genuine. Mr Ryan's (Tindall) is no exception
to this, as he apparently widely spoke of his "true" identity
- but seemingly only to those who did not know Dan Kelly personally.
The Ryan test may not yet have been performed. However DNA tests do not
normally take more than a few months to complete, and the bone sample
was taken from Mr Ryan's body back in 2001, a result therefore should
have been available by now (even if it only to 'exclude' DNA matches).
No result of the test on Ryan's DNA has yet been publicised, which is
perhaps a strong indication that, if done, the result was negative. Additionally
the town he lived in, Ipswich in Queensland, have been using Mr Ryan's
claim to Dan Kelly's identity, in an attempt to boost tourism. Thus it
is reasonable to assume that if the test performed did prove positive,
the Ipswich council would have sought to have the result made public immediately
- they have not done this (as far as we know). However Councilor Tully
has recently been on TV saying a result will not be known for another
3 months from now. Either way, you will be unable to make any conclusions
in your school assignment about the Ryan test.
Until any test results are shown (and verified) as positively identifying
Mr Ryan (or anyone else) as Dan Kelly or Steve Hart, researchers can only
assume they both died at Glenrowan. If in the future a test does suggest
a DNA match that indicates Dan or Steve may have survived then this, currently
hypothetical, aspect of Kelly mythology can be taken more seriously.
Good luck with your project, let me know how you get on.
5/04/03 Re: Bil of Rights
Does it say anywhere in the
Bill of rights or the Constitution, or in any documents of our forefathers
that we should have a separation of church and state?
Was Ned one of our forefathers? Hello?
4/04/03 Re: great stuff
First of all your site is
Ok to the good stuff! I recently met Laurence Kinlan and Philip Barantini
and they are so sweet ! they are really nice guys with wicked senses of
They are really talented guys too!
NB. Laurence plays Dan Kelly and Philip
plays Steve Hart in the 'Ned Kelly' movie.
1/04/03 Re: please reply
To whom ever it may concern.
I have recentley read some of the facts you have of the amazing Australian
Ned Kelly. I was wondering if you could please help me in sending me as
much information on him as you possibley can. I have had a sudden interest
in the man and I am finding it extremely difficult to find any valid information
on him. I would really appreciate it. My e-mail address is (withheld)
and I would really appreciate it. Thankyou very much for your assistance
in the matter.
Yours sincerely Josephine Crawley
Thankyou so much!
30/03/03 Re: another film
about Ned in the works
Hi everyone - congrats on
the site and it's quite good and a perfect compliment to the Iron Outlaw
one - anyway just thought you might like to know about my film about Ned
which is in pre-production at the moment - it's called The Sash and there
is a web site for it at
Perhaps you could make a link
for it on your movies page or feedback section. I'm afraid it won't be
at the budget of the current one! but still will be pretty good
Mango-a-GoGo Productions Pty Ltd
Don't know if any of the Kelly
mob might be interested, but have started a new website, a sort of internet
magazine format, outbackvoices.com
-Bryan Clark, CVentralian Media Services, Alice Springs
i have recently become interested
in the Kelly's and their history, its strange that what no teacher
in NSW was ever able to teach me i have now committed myself to.
i have read books and what Ive found is that the authors always
apply their own spin and give their own personal version of the Kelly
sage. Even when original documents and facts still exist they are played
Chinese whispers with. This is not what i am looking for. I wish to have
details that have not passed through any filters.
I wish to research more but i can not travel, i have no contacts and i
have no money to spare. I have naught but my thanks to offer you. But
if you have any advise or suggestions or anything, websites, names, contacts,
email addresses of anyone who might be willing to help me, eyewitness
account, descendents, anything that is at all connected with the Kelly
gang than i would me most grateful. email@example.com
I hope to hear from you, lexie
p.p.s, i just want to add
(and this is not merely a suck up to render you more willing to wriet
back, well not completley anyway...) that your website is the best that
i've visited and i enjoyed reading through it. Where do you find all of
that stuff? really. because that is exactly the kind of reports, information
etc that i am looking for. lexie...
Most of the research for this site is done
from original and contemporary documents, newspaper articles, parliamentary
papers etc., which can be found at the State Library of Victoria (which
won't help you much Lexie) but the Vic Library does have a site
(with the Jerilderie letter and armour), many other relevant research
documents can be found online at the
Public Records Office and Ned
Online sites, along Deakin Uni's Stringybark
Creek site with depending on what areas of the Kelly story you are
particularly interested in researching. Bill Denheld's new
site is also worth a look. If you are interested in Joe Bryne Mike
Lawson has a good site about him at Joeonline.
Try to get your hands on a copy of The 1881 Royal Commission report, which
is full of contemporary eyewitness accounts, a library in your state may
have one. The office of Births, Deaths and Marriages will post you copies
of documents (but will charge a small fee).
There are of course numerous Kelly books around, and yes they can be contradictory
and, as you said, can have their own 'spin' added, but the more you read
the more clearly you will be able to tell how factually consistent they
are - or are not. The more authors you read the easier it is to tell how
influenced they are by their own opinions and interpretations, and by
publication dates you will be able to get an idea of how much an author
has been influenced by previous ones. Some absolute must have books include:
Max Brown's 1948 Australian Son has been the basis for many authors
works since and therefore is very worth reading. For an excellent and
objective account that puts the story in historical perspective read John
McQuilton's 'Kelly Outbreak'. Whether or not you like his style
of writing, John Molony's 'I am Ned Kelly' is reliable when it
comes to factual accuracy and is therefore good to check other books against
( it is easy to find as it has recently been re-released). John Sadleir's
1913 'Recollections of a Victorian Police Office' gives a contemporary
account from the 'side' of the police, (you may have to hunt around at
libraries for that one however). As with any historical research it is
a good idea to do as much cross-referencing as you can. For a comprehensive
book review list check out ironoutlaw.
Oral history is also a very valuable part of the Kelly story and its reliability
is best judged by its source. Thanks for your email and good luck with
your quest Lexie.
23/03/03 Re: Neds accent
Gday to all at Bailup.
You may be interested to know about an article that appeared in the Saturday
22-Mar-2003 edition of the Sydney Morning Herald by Philip Derriman. It
questions the use of an Irish accent for Ned Kelly. The article (News
Review page 57), titled; Begorrah, Ned, or maybe gday?,
is a well written piece and puts both sides of the argument across. See
what you think after reading the article. Of course there is a mountain
of proof to back an Aussie accent and only hearsay and guesswork against.
It would be well worth including
on your website if you can provide a link
to it. LET THE TRUTH BE KNOWN (Ned was an Aussie).
12/03/03 Re: Compliments
to your site and my investigation on Neds Jerilderie Letter
First of all - Excellent site.
Your information is informative and tries to present the facts of the
time as they have arrived through time (hence -your reference to oral
communication etc). I believe the biggest area unexplored in all the Kelly
history is the Jerilderie letter. No one has yet explored its contents
piece by piece in an attempt to present it in the manner that can be read
by the general public. I have read text transcripts and read the first
few pages of the author in his hand writing at the State Library exhibit.
It is confusing and harder to understand than an old Charles Dickens Novel..
I still believe it requires someone to go through it and present in modern
day language and also explore areas referred to within it. To this end
I am exploring it myself and asking questions to clarify things as I go
(I earlier requested any information on Mr Johns).. I find it amazing
that we have had a hand writing expert analyse the author but no-one examine
the contents, meanings and validity. I have always had a fascination for
Ned K and seduced by the contradiction of the man. I feel sorting out
the (Ned and or friends cry for understanding) letter of the time could
help us all understand what happened a bit better.
12/03/03 Re: Who was Mr Johns
In his JERILDERIE LETTER -
Ned states his first major tangle with the law involved horse stealing
and mentions a Mr Johns. Reading between the lines it appears Johns was
the fellow that led McCormacks horse away from Greta to help pull Goulds
wagon out of a bog. This was no doubt at a request for help from Ned and
or his mother which later led to the feud between the Goulds and McCormacks.
Question: Does anyone know anything more about who Mr Johns was ? Ned
only gives a brief mention of him but my feeling is he was definately
implicated in getting the horse that got Ned into so much trouble.
(TRYING TO SORT OUT JERILDERIE LETTER)
11/03/03 Re: Where is Smokey
Hello, On http://www.bailup.com/NewsDave.htm
you mentioned "the movie was filmed at Smoky Dawson's ranch".
Do you have a rough location (nearby town) or address for this place?
Thanks for any help - it is proving hard to find info!
Brian McDonald informed us that the ranch
was at Ingleside, a suburb in the northern part of Sydney between Mona
Vale and Terrey Hills.
7/03/03 Re: Huts at Stringybark
Perhaps I'm just an aging
hippie but I don't like to see a lot of unnecessary conflict. I'd like
to point out that Ian Jones and Bill Denheld essentially agree on the
location of the police camp at Stringybark Creek. Bill's finding of the
remains of two huts on the opposite bank confirms Ian's location which
he found through comparing the Burman photos with the geography of the
place. (And long before them both, there were many people who knew where
it was.) Neither gentleman wants to see the place turned into a tourist
spot but those of us who like to stand and dream would prefer to know
we're dreaming in the right place.
4/03/03 Re: Ian Jones - Codswallop!
I read with interest how Ian
Jones calls Bill Denheld's findings at Stringybark Creek (reported in
The Age newspaper 'New Ned Kelly find leaves theory of shootings up the
creek") as Codswallop. ( John Faine's morning program on ABC 3LO
I'm a keen fisherman and Codswallop means ' Fishguts'. I have had a good
read of Bill's Two Huts
at Stringybark Ck, and to me its hats off to Bill for his most informative
writings on a very important location.
To me the 'New Ned Kelly find on theory of shootings leaves Ian Jones
up the creek holding the Codswallop while Bill appears to have caught
the Big Fish!!!.
Ian's comments sounds like sour grapes to me!
Can we invite Mr Jones to elaborate ?.
4/03/03 Re: general goss!
Firstly a big thank you to
Dave White and any other folks involved for keeping anyone interested
in Kellyana up to date on all happenings by way of you brilliant informative
I think iron outlaw is great but for every tit bit on Kelly news and views/research
your site is brilliant!!!!
The Melbourne Herald Sun have printed several anti kelly letters recently/not
many pro Kelly either!!!
I can confirm The Herald Sun is anti-Kelly as I have written to them many
times with Only one story printed, it seems either only do gooders or
members of the Police appreciation socirty get printed.
I have every respect for Ian Jones his books Have inspired many to follow
Neds trail , and even though Bills Denhelds Police camp theory is slightly
different to Ians on the Stringybark police camp site we need more folk
out there like Bill Denheld who have the time and energy to investigate
history and are willing to share it with everyone. Well done Bill!!!
Keep up the good work bailup.com!!!!!!!!!
1/03/03 Re: close family
link to ned kelly and his gang
Hello ,my name is John Brown
,I am 52 yrs. old and am one of four living children of Kenneth brown
and Nancy Brown. My father died in 1981 and it was only recently that
my younger brother and older sister were sifting through his papers when
they came upon his mother's birth, marriage and death certificates.As
ourgrandmother had died in 1939 and dad told us little about his parents,we
were fascinated to find out more about our ancestor. Her name was Jane
Brown ,wife of Matthew Brown ,they were married in Benalla in 1895. Her
maiden name was Lloyd and as it turns out she was a daughter of Tom Lloyd
and Jane Lloyd [nee. Quinn] It didn't take long to discover that Jane
Quinn was the sister of Ned's mother, Ellen,and Tom Lloyd was the ''Old
Tom'' referred to in all the Kelly stories.as you can imagine we four,
middleaged ,people were very excited to find out that we had a close family
connection to major players in events that were of a significant nature
in australia's history. We can only guess at why this was never mentioned
to us ,I can only presume that, looking for employment in the early 1900's
when good jobs were scarce, being a catholic was bad enough without having
the added stigma of being the son of ned Kelly's first cousin.
Feel free to contact me regarding this little tale, tours faithfully John
20/02/03 Re: web site
Thanks for the information
you provided for me re William [Jacky Jacky] Westwood.
Your web site is extremely interesting and easy to follow. Keep up the
19/02/03 Re: Ian Jones's
comment on John Fain's radio program that my finding is 'Codswallop'
Ian Jones is criticizing a
story, theory and hypothesis on the importance of two fireplaces found
at Stringybark Creek that may prove to be the location of the Shingle
Hut that Kelly wrote about and positively identifies where the two police
were killed by the Kelly's at Stringybark Ck. Apart from the very well
written article by Geoff Strong 'The Age ' 10 Feb 2003, my story has
not been fully told.
In my story I make several conjective conclusions, one being the 'Shingle
Hut' connection to the site. I have sound reference material to back this
up, however there are several other options that can be explored,- I would
like to leave that up to other researchers, including Mr. Ian Jones. My
hypothesis is supported by a 36 page report published on the internet
for all to see at no charge.
In point form my hypothesis covers items as follows,
Analysis of the Burman photo and exactly from where the photos were taken.
How the fireplaces were found.and the importance of the huts known to
have existed here back in 1879.
Analysis of the Kelly tree from the earliest photo to the present day.
Why the police went to Stringybark Ck? The finding in the archives, a
letter suggesting The Kellys hiding in a cave near Blue Range and to find
this cave the writer says to draw a line between Stringybark Ck and Euroa
and the cave will be found where that line crosses Blue Range. The letter
was dated 18 October 1878 and eight days later three police were dead.
Royal Commission Report dated 1881 after the Kelly uprisings indicate
the police acted on that letter but decided to shove it to the bottom
of the drawer so that the police themselves could claim the reward of
200 pounds themselves.
What was found at the huts using metal detectors indicate how the huts
were constructed and an 1885 penny help date one of the huts.
Back up references, G. Wilson Hall's book 'The Outlaws of the Wombat Ranges,
Ian Jones's Ned Kelly Seminar Papers 1993, Public Records Office of Victoria
website Ned on Line, writings by Gary Dean, historical notes by Sheila
Hutchinson who lived near Stringybark Ck and who found a Mansfield Guardian
report dated 1877 where a Walter Lynch is sued for burning down Percy
Broomfield's hut at Stringybark Creek 15 months before the Kelly's shot
the policemen there. Keith McMenomy's big Ned Kelly book.
I would appreciate your further interest in directing the readers to denheldid.com/twohut
and www.ironoutlaw.com allowing
further debate and hopefully constructive criticism.
12/02/03 Re: Re: Ned Kelly
Movie;- email by Matt Smith 21/01/03
At last, someone else has
finally picked up on this absurd aspect of the latest film on Ned, depicting
him with a dodgy Irish accent. Also, I have never come across
the statement, My Irish brethren and find it highly unlikely
that Ned would have ever uttered these words. Ned classed himself as an
Australian and was all for a Republic. The republic that Ned envisaged
was for all people (not just thew Irish), in this new land,
the land of his birth. I believe that when the latest film is released,
there will be more people questioning why Ned is portrayed as Irish and
For further reading on this, look below in this section to; 26/11/02 New
documentary being made and 10-06-02 Ned
You have done well. I feel
that Derek B. has had his time as a Journalist, just sensationlism. but
if we answer him, only makes it worse. I have written to him and his Editor
on another occasion, but no answer (no manners. Lola. (nee LLOYD)
29/01/03 Re: Sunday HeraldSun
My name is Matt Sumner and
I'm a constant visitor to your great site. You may have already seen it
but there is an atrocious article about Ned by a fellow called Derek Ballantine
in last Sunday's Melbourne HeraldSun. I think it was supposed to be advertising
one of the new Ned exhibitions in Melbourne but it seemed to turn into
an ill informed rant about what a bad man Ned was and how stupid we are
to remember his legend.
I fired off a letter complaining about the articles inacurracies and misleading
nature and I attacked the papers credibility for printing it but I doubt
we will be seeing it in the letters pages. They don't seem to like being
criticised themselves. Just thought you might like to know in case you
hadn't seen it. Keep up the good work on the site.
Sincerely Matt Sumner
Thanks Matt, yes we saw the article. For
anyone who hasn't, Click Here for excerpts
and my comments.
27/01/03 Re: The Last Outlaw
Regarding the release of the
mini-series 'The Last Outlaw'. Pegasus Productions and Channel Seven own
the series. Pegasus Productions (Ian Jones and Bronwyn Binns) gave permission
in October 2001 to have the series released, and to be made available
at 'Ned: The Exhibition'.
After speaking with Ian and Bronwyn, I can tell you that the final decision
is with Seven. Hopefully they will grant permission to have the series
released very soon.I thought you should know that the ball is well and
truly in Seven's court.
That is the latest! I will drop you a line should anything change, but
in the meantime I would recommend everybody signing Brad's petition,
and .....being patient - hopefully not long now!. What do they say? All
Cheers, Matt Shore
'The Legend Of Ned Kelly'.
Re: Ned Kelly Movie
I saw the trailer for the
new Ned Kelly movie starring Heath Ledger - I was a bit surprised by the
dodgy Irish accent, but that aside is there any record of Ned Kelly ever
saying "my Irish brethren" - or is it just a Hollywood like
attempt to make the film more appealing to the rest of the world? It pisses
me off, Ned Kelly was born in Australia, never left the country, and died
an Australian legend - so why are they trying to portray him as an Irishman?
What do other people think about this, and what are the facts?
19/01/03 Re: Last Outlaw
Could you please tell me where
i can purchase the movie "The last outlaw" starring John Jarrott.
Unfortunately the mini-series 'The Last Outlaw'
is not currently available for public purchase anywhere. Channel 7 and
Pegasus productions own it and seemingly are unwilling to release it on
DVD or video at this stage. They have given the public no explanation,
but presumably the hesitance is for legal or economic reasons. However
there is a petition to them requesting its release on ironoutlaw.com that
you can support. If you wish to sign it click
18/01/03 Re: Ned Kelly The
Ned Kelly The Movie
Premier 22nd March 2003
Released 27th March
It is with much delight I
see the Premiere is not to be on the 27th March as previously stated in
the press, but now the 22nd. The 27th March is the 80th anniversary of
Ellen Kelly's death, a significant date in it's self.
2/01/03 Re: Ned Kelly at
Hi, I am doing some research
into Ned Kelly's time in prison at Point Gellibrand. I know he was incarcerated
on the Hulk Sacramento, but I would like to know dates and whether this
was where he met Powel.
Ned was transferred from Pentridge to the
prison ship Sacramento on June 25th 1873, a few months later he
was moved to the Battery nearby. He was released in February 1874.
He had met Harry Power (we assume you mean Power?) some 4 years earlier,
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