Email Vault 2002
This page records the past
feedback from readers. The emails contained in this feeback section
do not necessarily represent the opinions of the creator and contributors
of this website.
Your say (and
18/12/02 Re: King Valley
The King Valley portal has
a new home at http://mc2.vicnet.net.au/users/portal
It has been revamped and updated. Could you please adjust your link
to the new address.
Your site is looking great!
11/12/02 Re: DNA
Is there any Kelly DNA on
record? Could it be done from the skull? This thing about testing the
remains in an Ipswich cemetery - does anyone know if it was done yet?
Rob S (via Vince Allen's email address)
6/12/02 Re: Glenrowan
I've been thinking about the
proposed developments at Glenrowan and thought I'd put some of my feelings
on the public record. I welcome any comments.
It's a while since I visited Glenrowan but I remember it as having three
1. The commercial development is pretty much confined to the western (Benalla)
2. The two most important sites - the Glenrowan Inn and the place where
Ned was finally captured - are free from development at present. This
may be good luck but I think there might be more to it.
3. The town is set in the Glenrowan Gap. On both sides of the main road
are hills with distinctive ridgelines. This means that it's possible to
look at photos from 1880 and see those ridgelines then look at them today.
It gives a real sense of place and emphasises the reasons why the Kellys
chose Glenrowan for their mad moment of glory.
While it's important for visitors
who don't have a good grasp on the story to be able to enjoy their visit
and appreciate the history there, as a dedicated Nedophile I don't want
ANY development to intrude on the sites beyond a few discreet markers.
Even the suggested paths, delineated by vegetation, which follow various
people's activities during the seige seem a little bit much to me. When
I "narrow my eyes" to quote Max Brown, I want to be able to
see the Inn and the battle, I want to see Ned struggling down from the
bush without having some sort of interpretive panel or whatever getting
in the way. Those things should be confined to the edges.
And as for the proposed Stage
Two, the multi-squillion dollar building, etc!!
Glenrowan needs sensitive development, visitors need a decent retelling
of the story, Nedophiles need exact directions as to where everything
took place so they can dream away, but these things can be achieved without
compromising the site. Or am I just being elitist?
Can we have a discussion on this before it's too late?
Re: New Documentary being made
I read with interest your
story about the documentary on the Kelly saga,
currently in production, Besieged-The Ned Kelly Legacy. One
of the film companies involved, Film Projects Australia has done some
excellent work in the field of documentaries in the past. The producers
are also aware that the accent of early Australians is in dispute and
it will be interesting to see how they portray these early Australians.
There are several Kelly Gang experts advising on this project and although
they may be experts on the Kelly story itself, they are not qualified
to advise on the accent used at that time. It would be hoped that Film
Projects Australia have undertaken the necessary research in this area
to uphold the excellent reputation this countries documentary makers have.
Their accuracy and attention to detail is second to none and if this story
is to be told again, let someone please get it right. In centuries to
come, people will look at these documentaries as though they are gospel,
being that they were made so close to the actual
Let us also hope that the Irish connection in this production does not
dictate how early Australians will be portrayed.
25/11/02 Re: Ned Kelly world premiere
PRESS RELEASE : Ned Kelly will have its world premiere in Melbourne
on March 27 next year 2003.
I wonder if the Film company is aware the date chosen for the premiere
is the 80th anniversary of Ellen Kelly's death (which was 27 March 1923.)
My initial reaction is that it is in very poor taste. However, I will
assume they are probably unaware of the significance of the chosen date.
Perhaps the 26 October or 11th of November would have been more appropriate
if they are wanting a date specific to Ned.
But surely not the anniversary of his mother's death.
I wonder what is the opinion of those out there
interested in the Kelly story?
I have tried to make contact with the film makers and their publicity
department to no avail hence I am putting this in the public arena.
Great Great grand daughter of Ellen and John Kelly, through Ned's sister
8/11/02 Re: Sergeant Arthur
Hi, I need your help please.
I'm looking for personal and family history of Arthur Steele. Hope you
can help me. many thanks
Ann Perrin (nee Steele)
A possible source of information on Sgt.
Steele's career would be the police historical museum. Also we suggest
that you join a genealogical site on the internet (such as www.rootsweb.com
), which can be a great source of both personal, and more general,
historical information that could be of
help in your search.
7/11/02 Re: Gentleman Ned
Just a quick note on the Gentleman Ned photo I must
say Im glad to see that the experts have solved it once and for
all. I never did think it looked like him, although as an amateur historian
with experience in neither physiology nor photography I was willing to
take a back seat and see where the ride took us (and what a bumpy ride
it turned out to be!).
With regards to the sketch of Constable Kelly,
I have to say the resemblance is quite uncanny, and it almost looks as
if the sketch was made from the photo, dont you think? As Ian Jones
pointed out however, the photograph comes from the personal collection
of the Lloyd family, which begs the question Why would they have
a photo of Constable John Kelly?. History, as ever, asks more questions
of us than it answers
. Keep up the good work I look forward
to seeing whether the final piece of the puzzle can be put in place.
Regards, Allison OSullivan.
(Anton Wick's great great-granddaughter)
7/11/02 Re: Dan Kelly
hi i need help on when Dan
kelly died bye.
died at the Glenrowan Seige June 28, 1880. (Some people believe he may
have escaped, however so far no evidence supports this idea.) For more
info see the Dan page.
5/11/02 Re: Need help with
Hi there Bailup :
I am doing a topic called "Why did Ned Kelly capture the popular
imagination, both in his time, and subsequently in Australian popular
culture ?" for my uni paper - but I cannot find a lot of information
on why he is such an icon - could you help me out ?
Thanks a lot !!
Information and opinions on
this subject tends to be scattered throughout most writings on Kelly,
but some authors have devoted their attention to this question in more
detail. The most recent and easily available would be 'The Legend of Ned
Kelly' by Dr. Graham Seal (click here for review
and interview), other sources would be 'Ned Kelly, After a Century
of Acrimony' by John Meredith and Bill Scott, 'Ned Kelly, Man and Myth',
a collection of essays by leading academics edited by Colin Cave, and
a book that is relevant to Ned's own lifetime would be 'Ned Kelly, The
Larrikin Years' by Graham Jones.
2/11/02 RE: Bailup
Dear bailup, this is the most informative Kelly site on the web! Thanks
for all your efforts.
23/10/02 Re: Bob Crossley's
question, Ned in Cowra?
Could this Ned Kelly have
been Uncle Ned Kelly - does that fit the dates in your article?
6/10/02 Re: Ned Kelly in
Hi, I am enclosing an article,
reprinted in the Cowra Guardian 30/9/02 re Ned Kelly, Ben Hall & Gilbert
working on the Cowra bridge I have replied to the paper saying the dates
to not add up in anyway, but to my knowledge Ned never came up this far
into NSW, I was wondering have you heard of this?
Regards Bob Crossley
(BangBang) Hall country
The town of Cowra is situated on the Lachlan
River, 320 km west of Sydney. A bridge across the Lachlan was built at
Cowra 1891 - 1893. According to the article first published in 1902, then
later reprinted in Feb 1957 and 2002, Ben Hall, John Gilbert and Ned worked
on the 'Cowra bridge'. While this makes a good tale, it is not actually
possible as all were dead long before construction began. Ben Hall died
on 5/5/1865, John Gilbert died 8 days later on 13/5/1865, and Ned Kelly
was hung 11/11/1880. Work on the bridge did not commence until 11 years
after Ned's death.
Ned ever in Cowra? The Royal Commission has a number of reported sightings
of the gang, none of which include the town of Cowra, so, officially at
least, the answer is no. The gang was reported as being sighted at Corowa
on 26/6/1879, this was later shown to be untrue, but it is possible that
the town name of Cowra has been confused with Corowa. We have found no
evidence that Ned was ever in Cowra.
Thanks to D. White for providing me with
Re: Vince Allen's new book
The newly released history
of Dan Kelly was recently sent to us for review.
At first I took the
Allen's seriously and did my best to assist them in promoting their new
publication, but things just didn't make sense and I wasted a lot of valuable
working time investigating various points in the text, only to find it
was sheer fabrication. For example, when I pointed out to them that various
authorities in the N.T. had verified that (1) Alice Springs was never
a goldfield; (2) there was, nor ever had been, a pastoral lease called
Uanda east of Alice Springs, or (3) there was never a township called
Torrens Creek in the same geographical area, the Allens then (oddly) sent
me a photocopied map of Queensland with Uanda and Torrens Creek highlighted!
Following are two emails I despatched to the co-author, Vince Allen.
From Bryan Clark, Manager, Centralian Media Services, Alice Springs. Australia.
October 1: ... Much
of the text reads very much as a novel, including dialogue, which the
reader has to assume is fictitious, and this sometimes gives the body
of work an imaginary feel to it, as though the author might have concocted
parts to fill any gaps that occurred along the way.
What a great pity it was that some researcher who has access to this man
over a prolonged period of time did not give some consideration to tape
recording an oral history with him. This authentic conversation would
have more easily been accountable. For instance, if your Dan Kelly had
mentioned an Alice Springs goldfield, This would have indicated
a person with scanty knowledge of the area. Being related via a second
person namely, yourself one must appraise the author's tendencies
to elaborate on fact or even to assume blanks in the unrecorded, or unrecalled,
narrative as it was initially expressed.
Overall, it is very well written, I think; it is clear and lucid and descriptive,
revealing very much a writer with a novelist's bent.
I gained the distinct impression, too, that the writer had a liking for
Old West (American) tales due to the occasional idioms employed and at
one point a mention of a bunkhouse on an Australian cattle
property. Cattle stations don't have bunkhouses, or not so on any I have
known in outback Northern Territory or the north-west of Western Australia.
Page 118 is followed by page 103 and become slightly jumbled after that
for 8 pages or so. Did this happen with all copies, I wonder?
October 4, 2002: I
am very sorry to have to say this, but the more I have examined the veracity
of your book, its claims and inferences, the less it impresses me. I can
only recommend that it be read as a work of fiction.
We searched through the Dictionary of Australian Names for
pastoral property, UANDA, and the small town ...TORRENS CREEK ,
east of Alice Springs without success.
Requested the Central Australian (Alice Springs) and Darwin branches of
the Dept. for Infrastructure, Planning and Environment to search their
vast resources for both names. I was informed, in due course, that neither
name was known or had ever been documented, according to their records.
Neither has local historian ... of the Central Australian Historical Association,
who was born in the Alice about 50 years ago, any memory, or know of the
documentation, of either name. East of Alice Springs there are only two
cattle properties, Undoolya and Ross River; thereafter, is a great eternal
desert, completely uninhabited.
The postal department have no records of either place, currently or in
Alice Springs Council records, ditto.
According to local archival sources, Alice Springs, as a town, did not
exist until the August 30, 1933. Prior to that, the settlement was known
as Stuart, and this consisted of the small community living and working
in and around the Overland Telegraph Station, approximately 5 kms to the
north of the current town site, alongside a permanent waterhole in the
Arltunga (about 110 kms east of the Alice) was the first largest settlement
of Europeans in Central Australia. Alluvial gold was first discovered
there by a Joseph Hele and Isaac Smith in April, 1887. Therefore, Arltunga
preceded Alice Springs. The Alice, they claim, was originally formed as
a supply town for the burgeoning Arltunga goldfield. If, as you suggested
in an earlier letter, that Dan was on a goldfield in Central Australia
between the years 1895 1920, the only likely prospect would have
been Arltunga. If this were true (and I doubt it), he would certainly
have referred specifically to Arltunga and not the Alice Springs
goldfields (which never existed, anyway) as an all-embracing description
of the locality which he claimed to have visited.
Dan Kelly allegedly escaped from the Glenrowan hotel fire on June 29/30,
1880. That's seven years before Arltunga was founded. Born in 1861, Dan
Kelly would then have been aged 19 years old in 1880. This means Dan would
have been 72 years old at the time Alice Springs came into being.
Even in retrospect, when I now think of the Jim Ryan I once interviewed
back in the 1960s, he would have had to have been over 100 years old,
and he certainly was not of that vintage, that's for sure perhaps
70 at the most.
It seems there are a lot of ambiguities inherent in this matter of late,
a lot of conjecture, and a lot of seemingly baseless interpretations that
should leave the researcher dissatisfied.
A Queensland informant has told me of recent TV publicity about Dan
Kelly's grave being located at Ipswich (or thereabouts) and that
certain entrepreneurial types were actively promoting this idea to the
tourism market. Is this true?
Having now finished the reading
of your book, and pursued some enquiries, I must tell you in all honesty
that I think it bears all the marks of an effort that has been rushed
into print with indecent haste, that it is poorly researched, and that
it should never be considered a valid addition to Australian historical
literature. Genuine historic research is a difficult enough chore at any
time. This book of yours only serves to confuse issues and is at best
a mischievous, or naïve, concoction of imaginary and unsubstantiated
data, steeped in irresponsible gossip, speculation and fallacy, that really
should never have been dignified with publication, self-funded or otherwise.
21/09/02 Re: Kelly
(23/09/02 Note: Bailup.com have since had a request
asking for sources and more information. I have expanded my original answer
I am getting really involved
in the history of the Kelly gang. I would like to know who identified
the two bodies as those of Dan Kelly and Steve Hart in Jones' Hotel after
the fire at Glenrowan?
The bodies found in the ashes of the inn were burnt beyond recognition,
and it was obviously not possible to do scientific testing done on the
bodies found as the year was 1880, but a reliable identification was made
just prior to the bodies being engulfed in flame. It was the principal
witness (Catholic Priest from W.A.) Father Gibney's sworn testimony to
the Royal Commission that confirmed the high likelihood of the bodies
being that of Dan and Steve. He reported that he had seen, and touched,
two young men lying dead on the floor of the inn just as the fire began
to consume the building. Later, he gave an interview to a Sydney newspaper,
(source: A Short Life), where he
gave descriptions that the two dead bodies were "beardless boys,"
which corresponded with the two missing members of the Kelly gang. The
account he gave to police, the R.C. and journalist remained consistent.
Gibney was an entirely credible and unbiased witness.
Another secondary witness, police Constable Dwyer, swore to the Royal
Commission (#9539) that he had seen two dead bodies in the inn, "I
knew him to be Dan Kelly from the low forehead, and the description of
them, and that the other must be Steve Hart." (#9540)
Comm: "Could you swear those were
the two men, Hart and Kelly?" Dwyer, "Yes, I knew the man
I saw in that position, with black hair and sallow complexion, was Dan
Additionally, the only two people unaccounted for after the siege and
fire were Dan and Steve, no one else was reported missing. (Notably, the
hostages in the inn had spent many hours together, and so far, research
has suggested that none of them reported vagrants being present.)
I have read the Book by Vince
Allen "Burnt To A Cinder, Was I ?" and will let it stand on
My complaint is that in the press release for this publication Mr Allen
sort to add credibility to his story by the statement: "......It
was through Jack (Allen) and the descendants of Kate Kelly that Vince
got to know Dan Kelly ...."
Within the time frame Vince Allen claims his father was given this information
from Kate's descendants, there were only three surviving descendants -
my mother, her brother and his young daughter.
My uncle, having served in the Middle East, was recovering from a war
They were certainly not in Towoomba.
My mother, would never have spoken of Kelly business to any one outside
the family. Through out their lives they were both very careful what they
said and to whom.
As to the rumour of Dan and Steve escaping the fire at the Glenrowan siege
it was long ago
dismissed as fantasy.
18/09/02 Re: Ned's skull
I write in response to Lewis
Higgs' query re Ned's skull. There is also a very good photo of the skull
in Ned: The Exhibition souvenir book.
I should also add that there are three plaster moulds of the same skull
in Canberra. Recently, one of those casts were tested against images of
the 'Baxter skull' and Ned's death mask, proving conclusively that the
skull he has is not Ned's. Most people will be aware of this already of
course, but I must say that I am suprised that it received very little
if any media attention. Hopefully Baxter will hand it back, and he will
fade away forever.
As I understand it in this very confusing tale, the skull that was stolen
from the Old Melbourne Gaol (apparently by the son of a very prominent
politician) came from the Institute Of Anatomy in Canberra. Before the
skull was given to the National Trust to exhibit, the three moulds were
taken and kept in the Institute's archives.
I understand that this information may only confuse the issue further,
but as co-organiser of Ned: The Exhibition, I had the oppurtunity to speak
directly with people who had an intimate knowledge of the skull story,
including those in Canberra. I hope this info is useful to you and your
It will be very interesting to see what the Old Melbourne Gaol does with
the rest of the human remains in its possession.
Cheers, Matt Shore
Ned: The Exhibition.
In your book review regarding
'Burnt to a Cinder, was I?' you state that 'But wait, there's more! Apparently
there is a chance Ned escaped also...' Could you please state where you
found this information in the book.
Regards Vince Allen
(Author of 'Burnt to a Cinder, was I?')
The implication that it was possible that
Ned Kelly escaped and was not hung, was made on page 189.
Congratulations on the book
review Burnt to a Cinder, was I?. I only hope that every person who reads
the book also reads your review - there are too many myths out there already!
I'm sure some people are genuine in their beliefs, others, however, seem
to be only after the financial gain. (I visited the "Dan Kelly Homepage
groups" site to find that the two messages for the discussion had
been deleted my the manager! - So much for open debate - it's okay only
if you agree with the boss!)
In 1927 Ambrose Pratt's book Dan Kelly Outlaw. Being the Memoirs of Daniel
Kelly (Brother of Edward Kelly, Leader of the Kelly Gang of Bushrangers).
Supposed to Have Been Slain in the Famous Fight at Glenrowan., caused
quite a furore. Jack Bradshaw in his work on Kelly stated that Ned's brother
Jim "... jumped from off his seat as if mad" when Bradshaw showed
him Pratt's lies about Dan. (Bradshaw's history does however contain a
large number of mistakes as well but of Pratt's work he states that it
should be "... placed in closets, only to be utilised as waste paper
under our present sanitary accommodation.)
Well done BailUp and keep up the good work.
10/09/02 Re: Skull
On your web page http://www.bailup.com/skull.htm
you give photos of two skulls.
Are there any other photos of the two skulls available? In particular,
is there one of the OMG Skull No. 1 taken of the left side?
of the genuine skull are hard to come by, the photos we show on our skull
page are from D. White's personal collection.
Tom Baxter and his mystery skull (that is not Ned's), were photographed
a number of times for newspapers and printed both here and in West Australia,
which will most likely be
There is a photo on page 120 of Keith Dunstan's book,'Saint Ned'
which shows a front view of the OMG skull. Prior to 1971 the skull was
originally stored at the Institute of Anatomy, in Canberra, and photographed
there. You could try contacting the A.C.T. Government to see if they can
provide you with a photograph taken of the left side.
Note: The photo (picture right) was taken with the Institute's
curator, William Stone, in Canberra in 1969.
9/09/02 Re: Kelly's Creek
bullets (click to original email)
Bill Denheld asks if the Kellys
made their own bullets. Answer - yes.
Bullet moulds were found (or
perhaps that should read "found") at the Eleven Mile after the
Fitzpatrick affair. Two bullets made from a mould were produced in the
trial of Mrs Kelly and the two Bills and the doctor agreed that one of
them could have made the wound in Fitzpatrick's wrist.
When Ned was being taken by train to his preliminary trial at Beechworth,
he chatted to the police about this and that. I quote from the Weekly
Times of August 7th, 1880, "He also boasted that he had manufactured
his own cartridges, bullets and powder and asked Sergeant Steele if he
had ever used any of the latter, and on being answered in the negative,
said that he (Kelly) had never seen better and if a person once tried
it he would never use any other."
Also. at Bullock (Kelly's) Creek, the reporter who turned up there not
long after 26th October 1878 noted that the trees around had been fired
into and the bullets had been dug out and presumably melted down and recycled.
I hope this is of some assistance.
25/08/02 Re: Ned Kelly
Hi, What a great website!
I am an American woman who has fallen quite in love with this Aussie rogue/outlaw
Ned Kelly! Fascinating facts, presented entertainingly! I really enjoyed
the presentation of the disputed facts, though we "Neddies"
always come down squarely into his
I am looking very forward to the Heath Ledger movie "The Kelly Gang"
to come to America next year. Not many Americans know of Ned, though I
had heard of him due to being a Movie Western fan as well as a Rock n'
Roll fan and the fact Mick Jagger was known to have starred in the 1970
version of "Ned Kelly". That particular part of the 19th century
has always held a fascination for me and our own American gunslingers
and outlaws have long held spots in my heart and now Ned joins them there!
Long Live Ned,
18/08/02 Re: Prussian connection
Strong oral history in my
family has my Great Grand father Johann Freidrich Kuckel being Ned Kelly's
blacksmith at Jindera NSW and sheltering the gang there as well. Recent
discussion have earthed other Prussian families in the area having connections
to Ned Kelly, particularly to the armour. Friedrich Kuckel was the Blacksmith
at Jindera NSW.
Following this period Great
GrandPa kept moving his whole life and eventually ended up in Western
Australia dying in 1947. He was never comfortable staying in the one place
and noone could ever work out why!
Regards, John Schilling
6/08/02 Re: Ned's knees
Given the phrase "Achilles
heel" has such a wide acceptance, how long do you think it will be
before Australians start saying "Ned's knees" as an indication
of a flaw in a plan or system? I hereby encourage all fair dinkum Aussies
to start putting this phrase to good use!!
Also I was wondering what is being done to protect Ned's armour from eventual
destruction via rust?
According to my source at the State Library
of Victoria - for rust to occur the armour needs to be either in water,
or subject to high humidity. Ned's armour is kept in a climate controlled
area, where the humidity is controlled. There is a small amount of rust
on the armour, but this was there before the Library obtained it.
22/07/02 Re: As Ever
On a more public level, congratulations
on the piece on the Felons Apprehension Act. I've heard people arguing
about the level of actual support for the Gang. With such a harsh act
in place, it's no wonder people kept their loyalties to themselves, both
during and long after the gang's period of freedom. I look forward to
19/07/02 Re: Ned's death
In response to Veronica Rowan's
email to this site, Ned Kelly's death entry was (and still is) on display
at Ned: The Exhibition. It is not a seperate 'death certificate' as such,
it is an entry from a large register. As far as I am aware, seperate 'certificates'
were not issued. All details pertaining
to Ned's death and burial were entered into the register. It is taken
from the registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages. It states his cause
of death as 'judicial hanging', his occupation as 'labourer' and age as
'28'. Apparently through the years even Ned lost track of his age, and
thought that he was around 28 at the time of his trial. It will be on
display until July 31st 2002. Cheers, Matt Shore
Ned: The Exhibition.
16/07/02 Re: The Bullets
of Kelly's Ck
You have created a very nice
Kelly web site with 'Bailup', well done.
I have a story you may be interested in. In 1985 I detected the Kelly's
Creek area site and found lots of 'old' rubbish, bullets and musket balls
of great interest, and I have written an account of this together with
pictures in support of my belief that the bullets are related to the Kelly
The text below, I would like you to paste into your area for Feedback.
Thanking you, Bill Denheld
I would like to ask if readers have any knowledge of the following;
- I am looking for expert
feedback about .45 calibre bullets and cartridges of the type used in
the Webley hand guns that police were issued with at Stringybark Ck
- and taken by the gang after the killings. And secondly, does anyone
have any knowledge of cartridge re-loading kits that may have been part
of police special issue at the time ?
- It is said that Dan Kelly
had a 'rifle' at Stringybark Ck. Does anyone know of this rifle ?
- Joe Byrne 'had a shotgun
of unusually large bore'. What constitutes 'unusual large bore?
- What calibre was a 'Fowling
Piece', was it shotgun half gauge? Or what gauge. The police had a '
fowling piece' fire arm and 36 cartridges. Were these firearms intended
to apprehend the outlaws? At Stringybark Ck, Ned emptied out several
cartridges and re loaded them with solid projectiles. Would he have
put in a musket ball, or what ?
- Ned had an old muzzle loading
'Carbine' ( rifle) .577calibre What did he shoot from it ? lumps of
lead, musket balls, cone shaped bullets, would he have had a bullet
mould? Considering he was a crack shot with this weapon he must have
had well formed projectiles at hand.
- The following is just an
observation concerning the logistics of using ready to use ammunition.
I could not imagine police having firearms that were dependent on a
supply of ready made bullet and cartridge assemblies at that time. If
this was the case, perhaps this explains why the police had so much
ammunition with them, as suggested by Ned who wrote in his Jerilderie
letter page 38. Quote - "..they had eighteen rounds of revolver
cartridges each three dozen for the fowling piece and twenty one spenceir-rifle
cartridges and God knows how many they had away with the rifle this
looked as if they meant not only to shoot me only to riddle me.."
This works out to about 139
cartridges, not counting what the police had with them when they returned
to the camp. This sounds like a lot, but if you are dependant on ready
made cartridges you had better have too many than not enough. In my opinion
these numbers do not constitute an over supply of ammunition, considering
there were four police on a known journey with an unknown outcome.
16/07/02 Re: THE FUTURE
Well, "Ned: The Exhibition"
is finally coming to an end and I for one will miss it. For a Kelly enthusiast
a comprehensive, tasteful exhibition has been a long time in coming and
it has furthered my appreciation for an epic story along with increasing
my circle of friends. It was a pleasure last week-end to be involved with
the third "Ned Tour" in the North East and be able to talk to
like minded individuals who even amongst Kelly fans remain polarised.
And the best may be yet to come. The proposed permanent museum in Beechworth
will be a fitting beacon for enthusiasts and those with a passing interest.
This is a "golden age" for those who cherish the Kelly saga.
2 new books coming out this year ( Graham Seals second Kelly book and
Jones revamped book on Joe and Aaron), along with the Heath Ledger movie
will be only the start I reckon. And look out for Mike Lawsons new website
on Joe Byrne and (hopefully) Aaron Sherritt. Well done to Matt Shore and
Brendan Pearse too for carrying the torch high. The books, museums and
websites, the coming documentary and Heath as Ned Kelly will certainly
keep me happy...
MARK PERRY- ADELAIDE
14/07/02 Re: Ned's death
Are you able to tell me why
Neds death certificate was not on display at the exhibition held at the
Old Melbourne Gaol and also do you have any idea how they got Neds age
wrong on that certificate?
Regarding the first part of your question
Veronica, I suggest you contact the exhibition organizers. You could give
them a try directly, (Matt Shore is contactable at firstname.lastname@example.org).
second part of the question is a tricky one to answer. Unfortunately Ned's
correct date of birth is highly unlikely to ever be known with certainty.
Due to the birth of his older sibling Anne, we do know that he could not
have been 28 at the time of his death. (The oldest he could have been
in November 1880 was 26.) It was reported that, at Glenrowan, Ned said
he was about 28 years old. Whether this had any bearing on the date on
his death certificate is unable to be determined.
It seems most likely that the date on his death certificate was simply
a clerical error. Particularly as the officials at the time would most
likely have considered it unimportant information to source accurately
- given that they were recording the death of someone as inconsequential
as an executed criminal.
(nb: We have not yet obtained a copy of Ned's official death certificate
in order to verify that his age was recorded as 28 years.)
13/07/02 Re: OUTLAWS
Great work on the Felons'
Apprehension Act of 1878. It was very informative, particularly as there
is so little around about the subject. It is a great resource for Kelly
students. What is your next topic?
Thanks Bill, (actually there are several topics on the go at present.)
6/07/02 Re: Felons' Apprehension
I have just finished reading
your work on The Felon's Apprehension Act.Thank you for all your hard
work. It is a well written and informative piece, and reflects an obviously
exhaustive search for the truth in this matter. The question of whether
or not the gang were aware of their status as outlaws at the time of Glenrowan
is an interesting one. It is eerie to consider that they may not have
been aware of the change to their status as Victorian citizens so close
to the events at Glenrowan; made all the more spooky when one glances
along the timeline you have constructed.
Well done, Bailup team ~0~
A N Baron
4/07/02 Re: KELLY & STEELE
Ned Kelly and Arthur Steele
figures are officially 'on the market' as of this Friday and will be available
in three formats:
1. GLOSS painted & boxed with a history sheet & signed and dated
certificate of authenticity.
2. MATT painted & boxed with a history sheet & signed and dated
certificate of authenticity.
3. UNPAINTED/UNASSEMBLED & boxed kit with a history sheet & colour
photo of the finished figure.
Painted: $39.95, Kits: $21.95
POSTAGE: 10% within Australia.
PAYMENT: Cash, cheque or money order (no credit cards)
DELIVERY TIME: Painted figures: 4-6 weeks, Kits: Immediately
Craig & Jason Pearse
Wilson Edward Toy Soldiers
3/07/02 Re: Victoria police
at Glenrowan query
Many thanks for your prompt
and informative reply. I've now located some excellent photos...which
are inevitably in black and white! Am I correct in assuming that police
uniforms would have been dark blue? And can you advise on the uniforms
worn by the trackers - blue again? Many thanks in advance for any light
you can shed on this.
3/07/02 Re: Website
Thanks for the info re poster.
Jamieson & District Historical Society Inc
2/07/02 Re: Bank Safe
I am trying to locate the
whereabouts of the bank safe from Jerilderie that was robbed by Ned Kelly.
Can you tell me who has this safe or, if not can you suggest anybody that
may know this information?
28/06/02 Re: The Dan and
Steve 'Great Escape'
Ellen Hollow's response to
recent press articles suggesting that Dan and Steve escaped.
21/06/02 Re: Don Farmer's
The comic you mention would
be Stan Ballard's The Authentic Story of Ned Kelly in Pictures.
This comic strip was based on J.J. Kenneally's book and was originally
published in serial form in The Australian Boy Fortnightly Magazine between
Sept-Oct 1954. Around 1954 -55 it was published by Standard Newspapers
in comic format. As far as being common - I haven't seen any for sale
in over 10 years.
There was another comic strip published entitled The Kelly Gang Rides
by "Lucky" Doolan, however this was much smaller than the "Disney"
size being only 7 inches tall by 4 3/4 inches wide.
Regards, Brian McDonald
17/06/02 Re: Ned Comic
received this request from Don Farmer who is searching for an old Kelly
Kelly buff Don Farmer of Wangaratta is very keen to hear from anyone who
has, or has read a comic on the Kelly Gang. Don was given one by his father
Ron, himself a very keen follower of the Kelly story, many, many years
ago. It was about the size of a Disney comic with illustrations in black
and white. According to Don the story was surprisingly true to known fact
and reading the comic sparked, in Don, a lifelong interest in the Kelly
story. Sadly the whereabouts of the comic has long since become unknown
and he is keen to hear from anyone who can shed any light on how common/
uncommon the comic was.
If anyone can help, he can be contacted by writing
to P.O.Box 1129, Wangaratta, Victoria.
13/06/02 Re: Thyanx
Thanx I found your info on
your web site very very very very very very very very very USEFUL!!!!
You are very very very very welcome.
12/06/02 Re: Victoria police
at Glenrowan query
Have greatly enjoyed your site and hope you can help with the following.
I'm working on a model of the Glenrowan siege, but I'm having difficulty
finding details of the police uniforms which would have been worn by the
besiegers in 1880. Any help/pictures/links/details would be greatly appreciated.
Best regards, Ad Krell
Apparently neither the Benalla police,
nor the Wangaratta police reinforcements wore uniforms, however the Queensland
police (native) Trackers did wear uniforms.
A relatively accessible resource for your reference would be the book
'A Pictorial History of Bushrangers' (H. Nunn, Bill Wannan, Tom Prior.
1968). It provides many sketches and photographs of the police at and
around the time of the siege, both in and out of uniform. (Note pages
120 - 149).
One sketch on page 134 shows police in uniform firing towards the inn.
It is difficult to determine whether the men portrayed are the uniformed
Queensland black trackers, but the hats of those pictured appear to be
quite different to photographed caps worn by the trackers (photo page
126). Indicating instead that there were perhaps members of the Victorian
police in uniform. (Possible explanations for this, include those in uniform
were not specifically involved in the Kelly pursuit and/or, sent as reinforcements
from other stations).
Although most of the police involved in the siege were not wearing
uniform, we need to allow for the possibility that perhaps some
of those present were in uniform at the time of the siege. It is also
possible however, that the police in the sketch were infact in plain clothes
but the sketch artist drew them in uniform, in order to indicate to the
general public reviewing the picture, who and where the police were. Other
details in that particular picture are reasonably accurate, but the name
of the artist isn't supplied - so from cursory investigation Bailup is
unable to determine if the sketch was done on site, or done remotely and
entirely from the imagination of the artist.
For more information you may wish to visit the Victorian Police Museum,
building C, concourse level, World Trade Centre Melbourne, (phone 03 9247
5215). Good luck with your model.
Re: Ned Kelly's accent
It is pleasing to see a Website
on the Kelly saga that is willing to question things that are often taken
as fact. The History in Dispute section is vital to helping
weed out fact from fiction. Your answers and comments to e-mail submitters
are of the highest standard, showing a completely fair and unbiased view.
Some interesting points have also been raised which will certainly get
some people thinking.
One of the biggest misconceptions
lately, is the way that Ned Kelly and indeed all early "Australian
born" settlers are portrayed with a thick accent that would depict
where their parents came from. I have aired my views on the Ironoutlaw
Website and have come in for some criticism. People are quoting hearsay
or using their own ill informed logic to come to their
conclusions. Some state that the Kellys were isolated in an Irish
environment and this is clearly not the case in all the areas
where they lived. The influence on a young child learning to speak would
soon be offset once they had regular contact with other people and especially
The facts are that Australian
English (including our accent) started from the earliest of European settlement
and is the culmination of many factors. The combining of different languages
and accents and the formation of new words , phrases and sayings, led
to a unique pronunciation that was definitely distinguishable from those
born abroad. Although our accent was in its infancy it was developing
(as it has and will continued to develop), these earliest of Australian
born settlers should be depicted as being different and sounding different.
People of that time could pick the locally born settlers, yet in this
era of modern films we cannot, so what hope do people from overseas viewing
these monstrosities have? We are constantly being bombarded with fake
accents for Australians as if we have no identity, or are ashamed of our
past. It wasnt that long ago that Americans dubbed our films and
most Americans thought we spoke like them.
For those with an open mind
or would like more information on this important subject,
it can be viewed on www.ironoutlaw.com
under the E-MAIL and GREAT DEBATE sections, as there is far too much to
clutter this new and wonderful Website. Let us hope that we will see the
day when oversees interests and/or money, does not dictate how Australians
FANTASTIC SITE!!! Keep up
the good work. Let the truth be known. Ned would have wanted it that way.
31/05/02 Re: Oral History
Hi, to all Readers of Bailup.
After reading about ORAL HISTORY, which is the history or stories that
my Father told me, also visiting the site of where the armour was fashioned,
hearing of the journal regarding the Republic of Victoria, which was being
planned, ONLY ORAL HISTORY, so presumably not correct. ???? Lola Rowe
Great question Lola!
I do not think in any way, that because something in the Kelly history
is 'oral' that it is presumably not 'correct'. Oral history is extremely
valuable, particularly in light of the huge gaps in the official history
of the Kelly story. As far as any history is concerned, things remembered
but not written down, tend not to be as reliable - particularly when it
comes to details, i.e. the basic facts may be entirely correct, but details
here and there become lost or altered. Oral history needs to be used carefully,
with its sources credited appropriately. In this way if conflicting accounts
do arise, it makes it possible to resolve or explain how these differences
may have arisen.
Oral history of the Kelly story is extremely valuable and must be treated
with care. History researchers cannot present it as 'fact' per-se, but
must view it with the possibility that it may not be 100% accurate. (One
need only look at the varying eyewitness accounts given to the 1881 Royal
Commission, to see that even testimony given shortly after an event can
be contradictory or factually flawed.) While 'oral history' from direct
descendants of people involved is often the only source of information,
unfortunately un-attributed 'oral history' can cover for fabricated stories.
(e.g. False stories have been published like this one from a Bill Bryson
book, "For three years, Kelly and his gang laid low, but in 1878
four policemen tracked them here. Somehow Kelly and his men captured and
disarmed the policemen. Then they murdered three of them in a slow and
pretty horrible way...Shot them in the balls and let them bleed to death.
To maximize the pain and indignity.") Giving credit where it is due
also reduces the opportunity for this sort of fabrication. It is only
by the sharing and accrediting of credible oral history, that the numerous
theories and possible falsehoods can be put to rest.
Unfortunately with the Kelly story only the government or 'official' side
was documented and presented to the public. This is why I note and value
the oral history available from many sources so much! When it comes to
the Kelly story researchers (and no doubt our readers) feel remarkably
fortunate to have so much of the story alive and well in people like Lola.
Thanks for your contribution Lola!
Groovy website, can't wait
for the movie. Heath Ledger get your gear off. excellent!
22/05/02 Re: Peter Carey
I found your website by accident
but am pleased that I did. I have just finished reading the 'The True
History of the Kelly Gang' by Peter Carey and am about to study it in
my book club. I thought it was an excellent read, but I was wondering
how factually based it is? Can you enlighten me at all? Thanking you in
Regards, Ciaran Davis
Despite its literary success, Carey's book
has been met with a lot of criticism from Kelly enthusiasts for not maintaining
historical accuracy. This is mainly due to the title of the book giving
the impression that is a history book. (I have even observed this book
in the non-fiction section of a major bookstore chain.) It is however
a novel. Unfortunately the errors of fact in it cannot be explained
Therefore I recommend that you read one of the many other Kelly books
available in order to do a comparison, (e.g. 'Ned Kelly' by John Malony,
'A Short Life' by Ian Jones, and 'Ned Kelly, The authentic illustrated
story' by Keith McMenomy, which are more factually based). For
a comprehensive book review go to ironoutlaw.com
Most importantly - No, Ned did not have a daughter, or a wife named
Mary! (That we know of anyway).
18/05/02 Re: GENTLEMAN NED-
Well Sam, I for one did NOT
crack a smile over breakfast this morning when I saw front page of "The
Age". Are we taking delight in seeing Ian Jones make a mistake? I
don't think the Kelly student follows him blindly- we all have minds of
our own but I (and many others) RESPECT him for the great work he has
done and his authentication to me still seems solid. I seem to remember
so called "experts" ( with qualifications no less) claim the
Apollo landing photographs were faked. I also recall vividly the "Hitler
Diaries" fiasco of 1982/83 which saw many volumes of "Hitlers
personal archive" authenticated by experts from the U.S., Germany
and U.K. It was interesting seeing them back peddle when it was revealed
they were taken in by a small time con artist and forger. Ian Jones is
an expert on the Kellys and indeed welcomes debate. Whether or not a mistake
has been made, please don't lose site of the fact that due to his work
(and others) the Kelly student is spoilt in terms of available information.
I don't think the "Gentleman Ned" debate has ended solely because
The Age have presented further info. Ther's more to come!
MARK PERRY- ADELAIDE
18/05/02 Re: Bailup was right!!!
Well I cracked a huge smile
over my Corn Flakes this morning! :-) The front page of The Age tells
us that the 'Respectable Ned' photo is NOT Ned Kelly!
No surprises there - but it is nice to see the experts (with qualifications
to prove it), confirming that the photo had been misidentified. Just
as Bailup had been brave enough to publicly infer some time ago. Well
I wrote a while back saying Tom Lloyd could not have written the name
on the back and myself got criticised. Tom would have known how to spell
his cousins name; to me it was obvious he could not have written
it, as the name on the back of the photograph (according to Christies)
was misspelled as Kelley.
History is about hours of
tedious researching for facts dates, names, and places and then
comparing, questioning and searching for authentication. All of which
are of course open to some error, but hearsay is utterly unreliable and
highly prone to error. This photograph was identified from hearsay and
the fact that it did not look like Ned in his authentic police
photographs was ignored. The result of which was that someone parted with
$19K for something of almost no value. It shows clearly why nothing
must be accepted without question!
I do not understand why everyone is so afraid to question any Kelly authority?
Ian Jones has put in heaps of time and done a lot for the Kelly story,
but he is not beyond making a mistake - as this one shows. Ian has made
an embarrassing error and staked his reputation on it if nothing
else it shows him to be simply just one of the rest of us. Shall we stop
treating him as the Deli Lama from now on and put his knowledge in perspective?
Lets not forget (like them or not) there are many other long time Kelly
researchers out there, (Dr John McQuilton, Keith McMenomy and Gary Dean
to name a few.)
Regards SAM BENNETT
8/05/02 Re: The Fitzpatrick
Really like your website. Very cleanly laid out, the information not at
all cluttered like on so many sites.
One question/criticism though if I may be so bold. At several points the
website refers to things Bailup says without telling us where Bailup says
that. The best example is on the History in Dispute page in the Fitzpatrick
Incident section where you write: "Bailup tires to clarify the fact
from the fiction and present a number of possible scenarios of what might
have happened. (Including examining Fitzpatrick's character)." Where
does Bailup do that? I looked around the site and there doesn't seem to
be anything else on the Fitzpatrick incident. This really confused me
to start with and I wondered whether Bailup was a book and this website
was just the promotional site. Is that it? The reason I ask is that I'm
very keen to hear your take on the Fitzpatrick incident.
Best regard, and thanks again for the great site,
for your comments Kiri. No this is not a promotional site; I am studying
the history involved in all areas of the Kelly story and share my findings
with anyone interested. The site is however a work in progress. As explained
on the home page - The History in Dispute and
Accepted History sections provides
a list of what will be investigated and presented. What you see on the
history pages are outlines - please follow the "More Detail"
links and where there is none - keep an eye out for they won't be far
away, (e.g. The Fitzpatrick section is not yet complete). I am working
hard, and dedicated to uncovering the 'facts' of the Kelly story. This
does take time to do thoroughly, but will persist.
17/5/02 Re: Congratulations
Just thought I would push
through the vast crowd of congratulatory fans to add my two cents worth.
It is such a pleasure to see what you have produced here. I am probably
one of the few who have an inkling of how much background research is
going into this awesome site. And I use the word "awesome" in
its Oxford dictionary sense!
Please keep your noses to the grind stone, as you are producing such wonderful
work here. History deserves this kind of dedication.
Cheers, Angeline Baron
3/5/02 Re: Feedback
Hi. Very impressive site,
keep up the good work, keeping us up todate, Friends, Sympathisers and
the odd Relative or two !!!!!!
I have enjoyed your pieces of interest. Thanks. Lola Rowe (Lloyd.)
2/5/02 Re: Kelly country
Its interesting to hear that
a "Tourist Trail" is being considered by a couple of shires
to capitalise on the increasing surge in interest in The Kelly Gang. I
just hope there is one place that is off their itinerary. The Computerized
Theatre or what ever it's called, situated at Glenrowan.
The place looks like it was built in the mid seventies and nothing seems
to have been spent since. It is the tackiest and most pathetic thing I
have ever had to sit through, not only did it disgust me but my entire
Bye the way , love your new updated site
keep up the good work
regards, Paul O'Keefe
(Steve Hart's great great nephew)
(Etty Hart's great great grandson)
17/4/02 Re: Ned
Yes. it certainly looks a
great site, but who am I writing to? First time I found it today but I
am looking for a name, thanks. Lola
16/4/02 Re: Feedback
I really like your site :)
Nice to see that someone is approaching the Ned Kelly legend as an historian.One
of the hardest things to teach kids about history is that we don't know
everything, and even what we do know is often presented with the bias
of the author/witness. I really like the title 'History in Dispute', it
says it all really. Also nice work on the skull, perhaps this is why Baxter
has never been charged for the crime he claims he committed. Makes me
wonder who did take it though. You have set yourself a big task, good
luck! Regards, Bill Chinnock.
11/4/02 Re: CONGRATULATIONS!
Congratulations! Just called
in to see how the new site was shaping up and you should both be justly
proud. With the outline you've given, there is going to be a lot of research
ahead for both of you. Judging by your last site, however I'm confident
that the research will be thorough and reliable. It will be a site worth
visiting at least once a week.
Congratulations again and keep up the excellent work.
Regards BRIAN McDONALD
11/4/02 Re: GENTLEMAN NED
I read with enthusiasm your
opinion and that of your readers re: the 'gentleman' photo of our friend
Ned. Of all the exhibits in Ned: The Exhibition, it is that particular
image that continues to cause debate. (I would firstly like to know how
Sam Bennett knows that Tom Lloyd didn't write Ned's name on the back of
the photo!) I, for one do not doubt that the photograph is Ned. I have
held the original photograph in my hand. I do not believe that enough
consideration is given to the fact that the skylight has distorted Ned's
features. The image that you have reproduced on your site certainly is
not a good print of the photo. This point is very important.
You say that Ned's famous
cheekbones are not prominent in the photo. That may be the case in your
particular print of the photo, but in mine they stand out very clearly.
In my clear digital print, you can also see Ned's lazy left eye, which
is also prominent in all the shots featured on your site. I can even see
his eyelashes, and his short, small mouth. Other features that are accentuated
in my print are the small belt he is wearing, and his frayed jacket sleeve.
Take into consideration the
last two photos of Ned. His hair is long, full of oil and combed right
back from his forehead. In both the oval plate, and the full-length studies,
Ned is frowning - giving his eyebrows a very straight look, and his face
a very different appearance. In the 'gentleman' photo, he is not frowning,
and his hair is on his forehead. Ned, although tall and handsome, was
not a man of rugby player proportions! We all need to acknowledge that
we base our image of Ned Kelly primarily on two photographs that are arguably
not the 'real Ned'. This is a significant detail, which should not be
overlooked! You could also argue that the Pentridge photo and the two
plates from 10/11/1880 are two totally different men.
The photo was first published
in 1930. At the time of its first publication, Tom Lloyd (the owner of
the photo) had only been dead three years. His children, and Jim Kelly
were STILL ALIVE - surely somebody would have said something if it wasn't
In conclusion we at Ned: The Exhibition, believe that there are other
photos waiting to be found. We are actively pursuing leads on some absolutely
mind-blowing photos and relics. We shouldn't shut ourselves off from anything
fresh and interesting that may turn up in the future.
MATT SHORE. Co-Director, Ned: The Exhibition.
Thanks Matt for your passionate feedback - I hope you are right and that
it is a picture of Ned!!!
Matt is an earnest Kelly enthusiast who is working hard on bringing the
Kelly Story to the public - which we certainly thank him for! For anyone
who has been asleep out there? Definitely go and check out Ned: The Exhibition,
at the OMG. It is open until July and is absolutely worth a visit! (We
alllook forward to any new discoveries.)
Here at Bailup.com we have heard many people say that they don't believe
this photo to be Ned. So thought it only fair to give such people a voice.
I am definitely NOT questioning the genuineness of people like Matt who
believe it is Ned!!! We are merely raising the possibility that the photo
has been misidentified? It would be great if the photo could be authenticated
in some formal way.
10/4/02 Re: NEW SITE/PHOTOS
The new site looks great.
I am looking forward to when you guys fill in all the details.
I just have to say - finally! - someone is questioning the 'respectable'
Ned photo. (Just because the much worshipped Ian Jones thinks it is Ned
- doesn't mean it is!!!) I don't believe it is him at all - mostly because
Ned had deep set eyes and the man in the photo has prominant ones. His
nose also appears smaller than Ned's. To my knowledge things like facial
features do not change! (It may say "Ned Kelley" on the back,
but that was NOT written by Tom Lloyd.)
Good luck with the site people.
5/4/02 Re: CONGRATULATIONS
and PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE - NED AND AARON
The site looks good. It is
crisp, clean and informative.
What is your opinion on "Ned the Boxer" photograph? You didn't
include this in your summary. Another webmaster seems to think it is Isaiah
Wright. To me, the boxing photo has many similarities to "Gentleman
Ned". Your thoughts? Although the
'boxing' photo is not authenticated as genuinely Ned, directly comparing
it to the other photos of Ned tells Bailup it is quite possibly genuine.
The facial features and structure, dark coloring, and even the smallish
feet are similar to the prison photos and eyewitness descriptions of Ned.
(Even the determined 'look' in his eyes is convincing) The only thing
I query is the hairline? Wild Wright seems to us to have a thinner face
and lighter coloring than the 'boxing' photo (by anything is possible).
When the poorer quality version
of "Gentleman" photo was first published in McMenomys 1984 edition,
it seemed to be generally accepted. Is it only the apparent lighter hair
in clearer version that is the "fly in the ointment"?
Gentleman Ned' has facial structure and features dissimilar to the authenticated
photos of Ned. McMenomy's originally less clear print did not cause debate
- but we believe that is simply because the shadowed face couldn't be
seen to be studied. It was not as important to get authentication on it
when it was simply reproduced in a book - however now it has been sold
for $19K and put in an exhibition - its genuiness is vital.
If it is genuine, I wonder why it keeps being reproduced darker and darker?
(Yet still isn't dark enough). I am very aware that after someone has
just paid $19,080 for it - even merely questioning the subjects identity
will not make us popular :) however we feel it is unauthenticated and
therefore must be queried! We do not see why a photo in the 'Kelly story'
could not be misidentified?
On page 70 of "Ned: The
Exhibition" catalogue, there is a photo supposedly of Aaron (or possibly
Jack) Sherritt. The figure has the same slender hands and fingers evident
in Brays "Pork Pie" photo of Aaron. McMenomy and Ian Jones seem
to think photograph shows Aaron Sherritt. Hope we can get some thoughts.
Good to see site up and going. Looks great. I'll be back!
Regards MARK PERRY- ADELAIDE The picture
referred to (page 70, Ned the exhibition) claimed to be Aaron Sherritt
(but possibly Jack?) When comparing it to the 'Pork Pie' photo, the subjects
do seem a little different - however do also show remarkably similar facial
structure and features, as well as the hands. So in our opinion it could
well be Aaron. (On the other hand brothers of course, can look similar.)
subjects in all these photos are possible never going to known for certain.
It certainly carries weight when more than one Kelly 'expert' agree on
something - but in actuality it is not 'proof'! I will question
even the 'experts' - as they no doubt will question me! Unfortunately,
the only people who could accurately identify all these photos are all
dead. (Thanks for your feedback Mark)
04/04/02 Re: WELL DONE!
Your site is bloody awesome
... I think it's a ten/ten!
All the best!
MIKE LAWSON Thanks Mike :)
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